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August 29, 2005
Christian group objects to gay-related quote on Starbucks cups
A national Christian women's organization says Starbucks promotes a homosexual agenda because of a quote by author Armistead Maupin, who says his only regret about being gay is that he repressed it for so long. The quote on Starbucks' cups is only one of dozens used in "The Way I See It" promotion. (Seattle Times)
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Comments
Man.... these right-wind christian groups really leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling, don't they?
Posted by: Davy | Aug 29, 2005 4:48:06 PM
In my opinion, there is nobody quite so judgemental and close-minded as a "Christian", who, it seems, are the most non-Christian people around. Whatever happened to "Judge not, least ye be judged"?
Posted by: javajockey | Aug 29, 2005 5:25:00 PM
Please don't base your opinions of Christians in general on these people...I am Christian, and while I don't agree that homosexuality is right (according to the Bible), I don't agree with these people attacking a simple quote on a cup.
Good vibes,
Eric
Posted by: Friendly | Aug 29, 2005 5:54:23 PM
How do these right-wing folks have so much time on their hands? They worry about the silliest of things. GEEZ. I suppose that these folks supported Pat Robinson in calling for an assassination too? Now there are some screwed up Christian values for you!!
They are just quotes on a cup!
Posted by: CoffeeBoy | Aug 29, 2005 6:30:59 PM
"Judge not, least ye be judged"
Starbucks needs to get really snarky and put that on a cup.
Posted by: Dunc | Aug 29, 2005 8:06:05 PM
they need to get a freaking life and cut back on the caffeine.
Posted by: jillian | Aug 30, 2005 12:08:06 AM
How do these open-minded liberals (you people) rationalize your close minded ideals when it comes to lumping all christians into one of the same? Not very liberal of you, is it?
Posted by: writer_nw | Aug 30, 2005 4:31:37 AM
And where do you get off Writer_NW lumping all liberals together as in "you people"
Boy it really never stops does it?
There are truly assholes everywhere.
Posted by: | Aug 30, 2005 5:58:37 AM
I think some of you are missing the point of Javajockey's use of quotations. I agree, there is a big difference between a "Christian", one who has nothing better to do than gay bash and boycott Disney and a Starbucks quotation... and someone who is a Christian... "Judge not, least ye be judged".
And, I have to say, I do love how "There are truly assholes everywhere" now appears on almost every topic.
Posted by: Amber | Aug 30, 2005 8:53:10 AM
If that guy from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reads about this, his head will expolde.
Posted by: Amy | Aug 30, 2005 2:03:27 PM
Ah yes, my favorite right wing organization. Concerned Women for America. (Currently led by a man BTW) I guess drinking coffee now makes you gay which makes you a sinner. More silliness from the silly.
Posted by: CGG | Aug 30, 2005 3:12:48 PM
writer_nw is a known troll. Please don't feed it.
Posted by: | Aug 30, 2005 3:15:16 PM
I'm a pastor of a Southern Baptist church. Here's my take on the Starbucks cup quotes. I'd love to hear your response.
http://www.stevekmccoy.com/reformissionary/2005/08/starbucks_the_w.html
Steve McCoy
www.stevekmccoy.com
Posted by: Steve McCoy | Aug 30, 2005 3:35:24 PM
Thank you Steve!!!! For your fair and balanced article. I have to say that you made some wonderful points.
I would like to say this...I think that many people jump to conclusions when it comes to this very touchy subject. An open mind goes a long way in this world. What we truly need is less judgment by those who proclaim to be crusading for God.
-A Gay Christian
Posted by: Barista xxxx631 | Aug 30, 2005 7:08:21 PM
My buddy Steve up there offered up some good thoughts. I'm also a Southern Baptist (though not a pastor), and my take on this whole fiasco is linked below . . .
http://rmfo-blogs.com/raekwon/?p=57
Posted by: Rae Whitlock | Aug 31, 2005 10:17:03 AM
i would have to agree that starbucks supports "a homosexual adgenda"...
but i don't think it's a bad thing.
although your government does not support same sex marriages or rights of spouses, starbucks has always allowed for same sex couple to have the same benefits as 'regular' couples..
the benefit packages allow for common law, and same sex couples to be dependables and recieptiants - added to the benefits packages as if they were "normal" couples...
way to go starbucks for upholding the human rights charters and allowing human beings all the same rights...under whatever consitution it may fall...
Posted by: | Aug 31, 2005 8:27:53 PM
Next time you call me an asshole you should offer up your e-mail address like I did. Don't hide behind your computer screen.
Coward.
Posted by: writer_nw | Aug 31, 2005 11:38:27 PM
Let's keep it civil and knock off the name-calling. I don't want to have to start blocking people from posting.
Posted by: STARBUCKS GOSSIP webmaster | Sep 1, 2005 5:23:42 AM
Yea dont blame the christians. History dictats some of the dumbest things in history we're done by well meaning religious groups. They are groups that mean well, they're just ignorant. All I have to say is if you dont like our cups go get you drugs somewhere else.
I think its a good move anyways, its not a quote saying "being gay is cool,"
Its a quote about being true to yourself and accepting yourself as a human being, not about the morality of your sexual orientation! (which is nobodys business anyways)
Posted by: Patrick | Sep 1, 2005 7:30:12 AM
The Christian church has much better things to do than complain about writing on a coffee cup. These sorts of people are acting allegedly as "watchdogs" for the rest of Christians, keeping them informed of current events supposedly worth their attention. As both a Christian and a Starbucks employee, I can assure you that no Christian I know would stop going to 'bucks because of the message on that mug. Its nothing new that Starbucks favors a more "left" view of things that many Christians today might disagree with. My only concern is that I really wonder if 'bucks would print a mug with a verse from the Bible on it. And if they opposed this view, wouldn't it be a bit of a double standard?
Posted by: Tom | Sep 1, 2005 7:55:45 AM
I agree Patrick. I find it interesting how many times the word "intolerant" comes up when referring to Christians. And yet, Christians are the most discriminated against for their beliefs which have the longest standing history of any religion. I would love to see some Proverbs on those cups. But it won't make me spend any more or less money on their products. I just like a good cup of coffee. Why do we have to "label" each other anyway? Either way, I think it makes God sad.
Posted by: Leedilee | Sep 9, 2005 7:18:24 AM
Sorry, I meant to agree with Tom, not Patrick.
Posted by: Leedilee | Sep 9, 2005 7:19:13 AM
Sorry, not to get into any debate or anything. I just wanted to point out that Christianity does not have the longest history of religion. It would be somewhere between Hinduism, or Judaism I believe. Buddhism was started around a similar time according to most Western historians. Also, paganism (still in practice today) is much older than any other religion on earth. It's important to remember that the antiquity of a religion is not what makes it powerful.
Another point, Christians are hardly the most discriminated against for their beliefs. I think most Wiccans, Satanists and Muslims would disagree with you on that point.
Posted by: Don | Sep 10, 2005 9:40:54 AM
Ok, as to my above comment: Amber got it right...I just think that there are "Christians" who hide behind Christianity to put forth their hate-filled, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou agenda, and it makes me sick. There are indeed real Christians who believe and practice what they preach: Love your neighbor as you love yourself, and treat others as you would like to be treated. And I don't think the debate is whether or not Christians are discriminated against; it's whether or not there are hatemongers among them who use their religion to force their own beliefs on others. I happen to believe there are.
Posted by: javajockey | Sep 11, 2005 7:31:43 AM
just let them do as they will.
Posted by: John Smith | Sep 12, 2005 1:57:39 PM
when will you people get your heads out of your "as_es"?
the issue is simply: do not proselytize homosexuality in a public forum. especially where children are present. starbucks is not an adult only establishment. never has been, never will be. that is primarily what people are upset about. what part of that don't you understand?
yes, you are out of touch with mainstream America if you think this is OK to do.
face it, whether or not you think it is ok to be homosexual does not give you the right to promote it in public. personally i could care less what your brand of perversion is. keep it away from me and my family. what you do in your home is your business. leave it there. do not bring it in front of children.
it is a shame that a large company can be so easily duped by the homosexual extremists into allowing this kind of controversy.
are the militant homosexuals giving the same kind of attention to helping the hurricane katrina victims? or are they prosyletizing there too?
i wonder...
Posted by: arthur | Sep 13, 2005 12:48:46 PM
Does anyone else think that Arthur is protesting too much?!
Posted by: Annabel | Sep 16, 2005 11:07:48 AM
In regards to the comments about Christians being closed minded because they don't agree with gays is preposterous. A Christian is NOT judgemental because they don't agree with a perverted lifestyle that is specifically quoted in the bible as being perverted and discusting.
Some of these people, such as "Davy" need to read the ENTIRE bible, not just pull out one scripture and apply it to life. You can't pick and choose what scriptures you "want" to use in your life, and what ones not to use. What the Christians are saying is that they don't want to be "supporting" a group that "supports" gay rights groups because it goes against their beliefs, from the bible. That doesn't mean we'd turn our back on a gay person who needed help. It just means that we will not support their "gay rights". We will not help them legalize gay marriage. What ever they choose to do behind closed doors is their problem and they will have to answer to God when they die. We don't want to hear about their life behind closed doors. But, the gays are the ones throwing it in our faces every chance they get.
Our Christian duty is to love everyone around us, not help a group that we believe to be perverted, to legalize their perversion. If a Gay person was in need of help, they would still be helped by a Christian. (A true Christian). We just wouldn't help that person be gay or flaunt it around the world.
Here's an example: Let's say that a person has the urge to molest little kids repeatedly. Does that mean they should molest kids? Just because they can't help that they have this "urge", should we suppport them in their plan to have rallies and legalize child molestation? Is it wrong for a Christian to not want to be a part of an organization that supports people who want to molest kids, then? If Starbucks supported "Child Molestation Rights", would it be OK for a Christian to say, "Hey, I don't agree with this, and I want to be a better example for my child and stand up for what I believe in and, not support a business who supports that sick and perverted act." That's not to say that if a Child Molester needed help, we wouldn't help them, a Christian would. We just wouldn't help that person achieve the goal of legalizing "Child Molestation." If a Christian wasn't even willing to help a person, ANY person, then that Christian hasn't been reading their bible enough. But, don't lump them all into one, because the majority of them just plain and simply, don't want to "support" gay rights. It's not judgemental to just not support someone's views.
Posted by: Cherie | Sep 19, 2005 7:08:32 AM
Sorry, it is not Davy, that I was referring to as needing to read the ENTIRE bible, it was Javajockey.
Posted by: Cherie | Sep 19, 2005 7:11:49 AM
Interesting comments all.
To get back on topic... the cups were not pulled by "right-wing Christians", they were pulled by a food service company contracted to Baylor University in response to a complaint by patrons who found the quote offensive and inappropriate for a Baptist founded University campus. Seems odd that supporters of alternative lifestyles should have a problem with that as they themseleves often employ the tactic "this (fill in the blank) must be stopped because we find it offensive". The food service company simply wants to appease it's customer base; they're not making a values call.
As for the off-topic jaunt into the attitudes of Christians... I find it surprising that those who so ferverently preach the acceptance of homosexuality based on a plea for 'tolerance' are themselves so intolerant of opinions differing from their own. It is NOT tolerance if you really just want everyone to think like you.
Posted by: Research-Then-Write | Sep 20, 2005 10:31:23 AM
I am simply trying to shed light on the reasoning behind Christians having a problem with the quote. I could care less if you think like me. But, before you people 'judge' Christians, maybe you should try to understand and listen to EVERYTHING that Christians are saying about the quote. It just seems that everyone is missing the bigger picture here. Christians don't want their children seeing these quotes on a cup, especially. We want to be a better example for our children. If we don't agree with homosexuality, then why would we go to a coffee shop where our children can read about it on a coffe cup? That doesn't make us judgemental, it just means again, that we won't 'support' something that goes against our beliefs. Why is that so hard to understand?
Posted by: | Sep 21, 2005 6:35:23 AM
I'm reminded of a cartoon featuring three panels of a man with a Bible beating a man wearing a shirt reading GAY PRIDE over the head with a stick. In the fourth panel, the man wearing the shirt asks the man with the Bible to please stop hurting him. In the fifth panel, the man with the Bible screams "OH MY GOD! CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION!"
Don't know why that came to mind just now.
Posted by: | Sep 21, 2005 8:52:11 AM
What an interesting topic. I'm not quite sure where to side. I fully support the statements that as Christians we have absolutely nothing to fear, and only gain, by discussing homosexuality. In fact, more harm is done when the only voice heard is that of the screaming gay rights groups. The majority of Christians have done a disservice by backing down and avoiding the topic. It's sad that the conclusion many come to about Christians is that they're irritate and blisteringly mad at gays. Most Christians do have an attitude of love towards gays. But when you mention any dissenting view about homosexuality, regardless of how much it is couched in love, a common response is hatred and name-calling. We've been cowardly for too long. As a Christian who has been guilty of it too, I appologize. I should have stood up to the plate and spoken from my heart on many occassions but didn't. But God's truth won't be stomped out regardless of the name-calling or hateful responses. It's bigger than that. It's eternal regardless of the culture.
And I also agree that I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either. Think of how many child-sized hot chocolates S'bucks sells. Kids are going to see it. That's not cool at all.
I'll have to do some more thinking and praying on what is the best answer to it. But it's got me thinking, at the very least, about my part in all of this.
Blessings and Christ's love to each of you,
Broken Jar
Posted by: brokenjar | Sep 21, 2005 3:03:28 PM
"...when you mention any dissenting view about homosexuality, regardless of how much it is couched in love, a common response is hatred and name-calling."
Doesn't it just suck when people won't let you feel good about hating them? Doesn't it just absolutely suck? Because believe me, when you relay that message you're only trying to make yourself feel better. Perhaps it's because deep inside you know what you're really saying.
Posted by: | Sep 21, 2005 7:21:51 PM
"... Life is too damn short" As a barista, if I was to state this whole quote as my own to a customer (with kids or not). and ended the statement (regardless of homosexuality being involved) with "... life is too damn short". I don't think Howard would think too fondly of it. So why is it ok on a cup if I don't feel like I could tastefully say it with my mouth?
In a practical sense I don't think the qoute on the cup is appropriate.
your friend Pablo
(regardless of whether I am a Christian or not)
Posted by: Pablo | Sep 21, 2005 11:08:42 PM
"I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either. Think of how many child-sized hot chocolates S'bucks sells. Kids are going to see it. That's not cool at all."
Have you actually read the quote in question? If not, here it is, yet again:
“My only regret about being gay is that I repressed it for so long. I surrendered my youth to the people I feared when I could have been out there loving someone. Don’t make that mistake yourself. Life’s too damn short.”
What, exactly, requires children to be protected from in that quote? Do you really believe that being honest about who you are is a "gay issue"? Wouldn't you want your child to be honest and open about who he is -- whether he's gay or straight? Republican or Democrat? Christian or Buddhist? Are you advocating denial, dishonesty and shame in place of it?
Or is it just a visceral reaction to the words "gay" and "damn"? If it is, I can guarantee you that your child has already heard -- and probably even said -- far worse in the schoolyard. If a child cares enough to read or remember the quote, I'd hope any responsible and involved parent would be able to explain the message.
Posted by: | Sep 22, 2005 2:02:17 PM
If someone is smart they would hoard those offending cups and resell em on E-bay. Starbucks and others should plaster the quote all over their gift items. And then it should be plastered all over poster, billboards (eh Robbie Conal), vegas style moving signs, trailing behind planes at the beach-put it all over just to annoy the he** out of those pontificating right wing/fundie/evangel/republican neocons.
Posted by: Jay Scott | Sep 23, 2005 11:59:55 AM
Just curious. As a gay Christian, a member of a wonderful, fully accepting gay-friendly Episcopal church, what, exactly, makes Baptists believe they somehow have a lock on "Christianity"? What makes Baptists believe they alone hold the keys to God?
My Christian values are no less valid than theirs. Hate and bigotry are certainly things our Saviour railed against.
Thanks Starbucks for creating the mug in the first place. Having the courage to stand up to hate is something Jesus would certainly applaud.
Posted by: Craig Garver | Sep 26, 2005 1:49:48 PM
You know-I've always wondered how a gay-christian comes to be. Unless.....it's like a recovering alcoholic.....where you have the urge to drink, but you overcome it with the help of God-is that what you are 'Craig Garver'? A recovering gay person, trying to get over your urges? I'm just curious is all. You can't be gay and be a Christian....that contradicts itself. Either you're gay, or christian. You can't possibly be both. You just must be a 'recovering homosexual'.
Posted by: cherie | Sep 28, 2005 10:32:39 PM
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:27
Read the whole bible! Don't just pick and choose what is 'easy' to apply to life and what isn't. Also, God didn't say that your every desire should be met!
Posted by: | Sep 28, 2005 10:52:08 PM
Cherie, I've read your comment and I've just prayed that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ opens your stone of a heart and that some day you too can know the love of Almighty God. Clearly you do not now have that kind of love dwelling within you. How truly sad.
It's also not "craig garver" as some pseudo name. That's my real name. I'm proud of who I am and know that God loves me for exactly the person He made me. I also pray that someday you reach the same point in your faith.
Perhaps you could read the entire Bible. You know, Cherie, there's only six verses in the Bible that even mention homosexuality, and Jesus never made a single utterance on the topic.
But he had plenty to say on fake believers (Pharisees and Hypocrites) as He took sinners, prostitutes, and tax collectors into His heart. Where are you? Fully one sixth of the recorded words of Jesus and one third of the entire passages of the Bible condemn wealth for it's corrosive effects upon the soul. Please do something about the plank in your own eye before you assist me in the removal of the speck in mine.
Where are you in your faith, then. You condemn me when you are clearly commanded by God and Jesus not to judge. Have you followed Jesus and sold all your possessions, given the money to the poor, and followed Christ wherever he leads you?
I don't have much, Cherie, but I gladly give my all to helping others. I'll stack up my good deeds against yours any day.
There's not one single solitary thing I'm at odds with God on, and I only pray you can say the same. Being gay and Christian is in no way mutually exclusive. Being filled with hate and intollerance and being Christian are as far apart as the east is from the west.
May God fill your heart with joy so that you can know Him as I and my fellow gay Christians do.
-- Craig
Posted by: Craig Garver | Oct 1, 2005 12:26:58 AM
Also, Cherie, I'm most certainly not a "recovering" homosexual. I'm quite proud of who I am and thank God for making me who I am.
Maybe you should question the "ex-gay" movement instead of out gay people. There's not a single reputable mental health group that supports the "ex-gay" claims made by Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, etc. A true Christian does not lie, and their "success" rate is less than 1%.
We no more choose our sexuality than you did. Truly, admit to yourself that you no more woke up one morning and decided to become "straight" than I chose to become gay. Human sexuality is permanently set by age 5. Only a con artist or a truly evil and sick person would even try to change another person to fit your own sterotypical views of sexuality.
There is one other reason that certain "Christians" take the vehemently anti-gay possitions they do. University studies in Georgia proved that 70% of homophobic men were physically aroused by gay porn, as opposed to 20% in the non-homophobic population.
Maybe before you condemn me, and try to stip me of what few rights I have, you might want to look inwardly and address whatever issues YOU have. I have none, thank you.
-- Craig
Posted by: Craig Garver | Oct 1, 2005 12:37:17 AM
Anybody who thinks that the Baptist church is "Christian" needs to read this site...endorsed and run by a Baptist congregation:
www.godhatesfags.com.
Jaw-droppingly hate-filled and sick.
Posted by: | Oct 1, 2005 7:08:05 AM
Cherie:
Your idea that homosexuality is some sort of disease, and that it can be cured is really amazing. By the same token, I could try to cure you of being a Christian, because it is something you caught from your parents and you can be cured with the right discipline.
Instead of not being possible to be both gay and Christian, I find it harder to believe (and sadder, really) that it is possible to be so unforgiving and narrow-minded and be a Christian.
Posted by: javajockey | Oct 1, 2005 9:40:01 AM
>> "Read the whole bible! Don't just pick and choose what is 'easy' to apply to life and what isn't. Also, God didn't say that your every desire should be met!"
OK. Here's a few versus maybe you should consider also.
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."
-- Lev. 19-18.
We are your neighbor. We are your children. We are your co-workers. We are your people.
"Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord."
-- Zec 8:17
""You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
-- Mt 5:43-45
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
-- Rom 13:10
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
-- Jas 2:8
And finally, since the ten commandments are such a big part of your lives, though too often completely ignored:
"For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.""
-- Rom 13:9
>> "I find it surprising that those who so ferverently preach the acceptance of homosexuality based on a plea for 'tolerance' are themselves so intolerant of opinions differing from their own. It is NOT tolerance if you really just want everyone to think like you."
>> "A Christian is NOT judgemental because they don't agree with a perverted lifestyle that is specifically quoted in the bible as being perverted and discusting."
>> "But, before you people 'judge' Christians, maybe you should try to understand and listen to EVERYTHING that Christians are saying about the quote. It just seems that everyone is missing the bigger picture here. Christians don't want their children seeing these quotes on a cup, especially. We want to be a better example for our children."
>> "I find it interesting how many times the word "intolerant" comes up when referring to Christians. And yet, Christians are the most discriminated against for their beliefs which have the longest standing history of any religion."
"They are always welcome in MY church. I just wish I was welcome in THEIR church." -- Gene Robinson, Bishop of New Hampshire, Epsiscopal Church. (who happens to be gay).
So about intollerance and persecution. Sir, do I go to the state and federal legislature to demand that your right to employment, housing, and equal protection under the law be stripped from you because you are CHRISTIAN? Why then do you do it to me?
Do you fear being discovered as a Christian by your family, friends, and place of employment? Do you fear walking out of your church could bring on a viscious hate crime, "christian-bashing?"
How exactly are your discriminated against? YOU are protected under the law in all these areas. I am not. You work actively and relentlessly to prevent my ever becoming a full citizen in my own country. I do not lift a finger to hinder your life in any single way.
Do you know what it is like to suffer real discrimination and persecution? Let me tell you.
I was "identified" as gay on the first day of school in Junior High. From that day until the moment I left High School, I suffered daily, relentless, horrific physical and mental attacks. Have you ever been thrown into traffic by a mob, hoping you'd die from being hit by a car? No? I have. Have you ever suffered such intense verbal abuse and pschological trauma from a crowd that there was not a month that went by in six long years that you did not contemplate suicide to bring the horror to an end? No? I have.
ALL of this was brought about by the "love" and "tolerance" of "preaching" "God's word" -- at a time I didn't even know what "gay" meant! I never once hurt a single solitary soul. I never advocated any position. I never did anything to anybody. My "crime" was that I was bookish and didn't play sports. Don't try to convince me that being Christian is such a life of misery. I'm both gay and Christian, and I darn sure never suffered one moment for being Christian.
How about OUR children? Gay teens commit suicide THREE times more than straight kids, because of the persecution. 80% of those kids that attempted suicide and survived, said that they had been gay bashed and that that was drove them to the attempt to take their own lives.
Run to Mom and Dad? Right. A huge segment of the homeless teen population is gay, having been made homeless by the simple disclosure to their parents that they were who they were.
What the hell kind of "loving" and "tolerant" Christian parent would do that to their own children?
>> "And I also agree that I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either."
1. Yeah, he might grow up to be kind to his fellow human being.
2. You might stop your kid from being a gay basher and committing horrible acts of violence and torture.
3. You might just help your own kid as he or she deals with being gay. 13% of boys and 7% of girls ARE gay.
> Homosexual agenda.
Would ONE of your kindly tell me where this all powerful "Homosexual Lobby" is so I can kindly join it? I've searched for years and can't see anything more than a few helpless advocacy groups struggling against millionare televangelists. Go compare the Family Research Council, Concerned Women of America, and Focus on the Family to GLAAD, PFLAG, HRC, or any other gay advocacy group. Their annual budgets for staples would cover our combined budgets for generations to come.
Stop the lies and the violence. Look closely in the mirror. You'll cringe at what you see if you truly look.
Posted by: Craig Garver | Oct 2, 2005 3:41:39 PM
Craig-maybe all you needed was some serious therapy, and apparently still do!
I'm so sorry those things happened to you. They happen to kids all the time who are not gay, though. So, how dare you use being "gay" as a crutch to the horrible things that happened to you. Yes, it's very sad, but they happen all the time to heterosexual people. (My own, straight, brother.)
I agree that there are a lot of not so nice, judgemental Christians out there. I'm so sorry that you've encountered the kind of Christians you have apparently encountered all of your life. I would be filled with sorrow if those are the kind of people I knew, too. I just wanted to say, I'm sorry for the life you lead and have been forced to lead-referring to the cruel childhood you had.
May God be with you and whatever lifestyle you choose. I never said "I" personally judge you. I just wanted to say a few thoughts of my own regarding the subject. Yes, I feel as though homosexuality is no different then a sociopath, pedifile, alcoholic, bi-polar. Those people cannot help that they are those things, however it doesn't mean they should act on their impulses, whatever they may be.
But, we can argue this until we die, and it doesn't matter. What matters is that we each, individually, do the best we can to live according to the word of God. Yes I do agree that the bible is left a lot to "interpretation", and that what it says to some people, it does not say to others. God knows what is in our heart, and he will judge accordingly.
If you came to my door in the middle of the night, and I knew you were gay, you would still be welcomed into my home with open arms. I am not judgemental, because I won't go to a gay rally and "help" your cause, or because I don't want my child learning from other people that it is OK to be gay.
All that these posts have shown is that we are all so different, and think so different, and that is ok. What you do behind closed doors is your business, not mine. May God be with all of you, and hopefully we'll all meet up in heaven one day. I love you all!!
Posted by: Cherie | Oct 2, 2005 4:21:26 PM
I commend Craigs high and exceptional degree of spiritual intelligence. Very impressive. You really know your s*it, and can present it in an ethical, dignified manner.
*tuche!
Posted by: Z | Oct 2, 2005 4:28:29 PM
Wow Craig, I might consider going to Church again if you were the preacher. Suddenly someone presents the idea that Christianity does not have to be intolerant and prejudice. Wow, I DONT have to dislike people just because they were born the way they are? Cool. The actual idea is...amazing...kind of like that time in history when blacks and minorities were considered the same way, and then..suddenly, some open minded person came along and showed us that it didnt have to be that way.
I've had an epiphany. It goes something kind of like, ..I have my own personal relationship with god.... that does not need to be approved by anyone, it does not need to meet anyone else’s standards, and I don’t have to adhere strictly to a book that was revised literally hundreds of times to suit the desires of tyrannical political pursuits. *gasp* and maybe...just maybe...its ok to believe that god ..loves....everybody? That I don’t have to settle with the ideal of a masochistic god who makes me a certain way then hates me for it? Awesome!
Considering that god did not make everyone the same race, the same height, the same gender, hair color, eye color, maybe god wanted people to be different? maybe the ultimate objective is to take down the walls we build between each other and stop putting them up? Consider maybe that we are all gods creations, and we all happen to be very different. Consider psychopathic violent dictators are the ones who exterminate 5 million people because they do not have blond hair and blue eyes. Consider that if you cannot hear the word of god whispering in your own ears, if you need a man written medium to objectify every component of your faith, then you need to re-evaluate your own relationship with god, and do not question mine.
Posted by: arcane | Oct 2, 2005 5:47:55 PM
a hundred bucks says some brilliant person is going to come along and say "were not saying you have to be the same, there's just something wrong with you if your not heterosexual like us"
Then someone is bound to say -in so many words-
"I'm not saying theres anything wrong with gays, its just that I want to shelter my children from their entire existance so that they will feel ackward and prepetuate the same misunderstanding that I have towards them when they eventually run across them in their teen/adult years, which is bound to happen because homosexuals do actually exist, and will continue to exist weather I pretend it does or not.
And this vicious argument will ride the ferris wheel around and around until human mentality evolves up a notch, and we all figure out how to exist peacefully, and join efforts to concentrate on protecting children from real preditors and enemies like pedophiles and murderers.
Posted by: stix | Oct 2, 2005 6:12:50 PM
Arcane: You definitely "got" Christianity right! That's exactly what Jesus, the Apostles, and all early Christians advocated. Read Jesus and you will see just how radical He really was, and why he was such a threat to the established power elite.
The Bible is EXACTLY as you describe it. Manmade. It's full of contradictions because it was written over thousands of years, and most of the old testament (esp. Genisis, etc.) was an oral tradition for over a thousand years before it was ever put in writing. Great epic story of the Hebrew people, but "word of God" it is not. Even the New Testament nowhere claims that for itself!
The Bible is POINTS to God, but IS NOT God. It is man's attempt to understand that which is not understandable to our finite minds: God.
Our rector just gave a great sermon about this Sunday. If you examine the lives and teachings of Jesus, St. Francis of Asisi, and Buda, they all are remarkably similar. Abandon wealth and power, live simply, and you will live RICHLY.
You might enjoy "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and "Sins of Scripture", both by Bishop John Spong. Really eye opening!
Hey, you don't need me preaching. Just about all of the Episcopal churches teach this, every one of the Metropolitan Community Churches (gay), certainly the Univeralists, and even a lot of Lutheran ones, too.
Please, everyone, don't right of Christianity because of a hand full of bigots and hate mongers in a minority of denominations and those mega-churches. Examine the truth for yourself. It's a great religion because it is one of the most self-empowering forces the world has ever known.
May God richly bless your quest for truth and may your deepest questions be richly answered.
-- Craig
Posted by: Craig Garver | Oct 3, 2005 12:16:31 PM
Stix and Z: Thanks so much!
> And this vicious argument will ride the ferris wheel around and around until human mentality evolves up a notch, and we all figure out how to exist peacefully, and join efforts to concentrate on protecting children from real preditors and enemies like pedophiles and murderers.
That's the really sad part of all this. So much effort is being wasted on attacking homosexuality, while the poor, destitute, downtrodden, and victimized are left to fend for themselves as this farce of a "jihad" goes on.
Speaking of which, by the way Cherie, I had both attempted on me as a little kid, right before the gay bashers got in their whacks. Yep. A STRAIGHT pedaphile did his worst on me, for a couple of years beginning when I was six, and then tried to suffocate me or gouge my eyes out when his plans went sour.
But one last thought, Cherie. Let me demonstrate one great facet of Christianity to you that I'm really afraid you just don't get.
This person hurt me so bad emotionally in these attacks, that I wasn't able to mention it to another human being until I was 45, just last year. My whole life, I had horrible, terrifying nightmares every few days, and never understood why. It affected me in all kinds of other ways I never thought of, too. A lot of internalized anger, hyper sensitivity to certain things, etc.
But here's something I want you to think about and pray about. I completely forgave this man some fifteen years ago, when I became a Christian. And I mean COMPLETELY forgave him. I've prayed for him, and for every single other person that's ever harmed me in my life. Even you, and the hurt you've delivered at my feet.
All this abuse, and all this hatred delivered at me, and all this pain, has been a genuine blessing to me. It's given me enormous compassion for everyone, including my enemies. I can honestly say I've never hurt another person. When I was physically attacked, I never struck back. I just absorbed it. And I forgave.
And I've also taken pitty on every other person I come across in life that suffers. I'm a truck driver, and have been for a dozen years. I've come across accident in the middle of the night, and stood for hours in freezing rain giving assistance. I've litterally pulled the bedding out of my truck and given it to perfect strangers in need, even though it left me with nothing. I've pulled the very jacket I was wearing off to give it to shivering accident victims. I've helped the police by directing traffic until more help came, giving them the chance to help the injured.
As a trainer for my company, I've emptied my own bank account many times to keep poor, starving student drivers fed and clothed. One student started screaming at me in the middle of the night over a pretty minor problem. I realized that wasn't what was the matter. I listened, I gently probed. He was 24, broke, on the verge of a divorce from his wife, who had cervical cancer. Cherie, I gave him nearly $400 in cash that very night, virtually every dime I had. Then I gave him my calling card so he could work things out with his wife, another $400. Then I refused to let him pay me back, insisting that he help others when he found the opportunity. He repaid me that way in spades.
So before you lecture me about how "sick" and "depraved" I am and how I need to get right with God, Cherie, and wonder "how dare I" ... well, that's "how dare."
I'm sorry I can't see things from your point of view. It's just so judgemental and critical and unloving, I just can't stoop that low to join you. Sorry. May God bless you.
Posted by: Craig Garver | Oct 3, 2005 12:37:36 PM
The reason, I believe, people should be concerned about this message is that it can portray to a young generation to just go with whatever they feel. People looking for direction in their life may not really give a crap about some left-wing conservative's quote, right or wrong, but they read about some guy that was confused his whole life and then "realized" he was "gay" and you have, potentially, a message on a cup that could off-set the entire future of a young persons life. I for one as a parent and as a youth pastor don't really want to know about some "American Writer's" sexual preference while I'm just sittin' down for a cup of Jo. And I sure as hell don't think a kid, that doesn't even care about sex yet, should have to ponder the wrong or right "decisions" of an obviously desturrbed human being. It's a coffee cup for cryin' out loud! It should have nothing on it that has anything to do with sex. Period! If it was talking about heterosexual love in a descriptive way it would still upset me because it's just not appropriate. We need to stop saying, "They have a right to do whatever or write whatever they want and screw everyone that thinks it's wrong" and start thinking responsibly for the next generation. Because if we continue down the road we are currently on there may not be a future worth having.
Posted by: Ryan Simpson | Oct 10, 2005 7:34:39 AM
I have to say that I COMPLETELY agree with the removal of this type of writing from a coffee cup. I have read so many opinions about this and they all say that the Christian mindset is judgemental. That is just plain false... You say your a Christian and believe the Bible, yet you don't have a problem with homosexuality. The Bible clearly says that it is wrong. If that's what it says and you believe it is God's word, then how can you go against it by upholding homosexuality? I am an Independant Fundamental Baptist... Which means, we don't follow ANY type of religious organization and we believe (bottom line) what the Bible says, we do. Yes, we all make mistakes and fail. However, God DOES NOT!!! if he says it is an abomination, then it is. Who am I to question him? In the book of Malichai, another group questioned him (Jews). He promised that if they did not build him up and his name, he would take his love to the gentiles where it would be. They didn't listen... So he did! Yes he still loved them, so much so that he sent his son Jesus to die for them. But he now loved the gentiles(non-jews) also.
I was also reading how because of all the GREAT things everyone does, they are the true christians and we are just "judgemental, crazy Bible bumpers". While it is true that alot of you have done some Great things with your money or your time or talents to help others(and I applaud you), the Bible clearly states that "Ephesians 2:8-9 For by Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast". This being that faith in God is all that is needed for salvation. Works are great but without salvation, they are just wasted time.
Getting back to the coffee cup, bottom line is that people just want to drink a cup of coffee. They don't want to be reminded of the moral decay of society.
Posted by: Bill | Oct 19, 2005 10:11:52 AM
Not that anyone really cares, but this is my view on Christianity.
I was raised in a Christian home. My dad was a Baptist minister. He was a good man and I loved and respected him. When I was 12 years old, a 40-year-old man who was the choir director at my dad’s church raped me, my aunt’s husband and my mom’s brother (who lived with us) molested me. I got married when I was 17 and 4 years later we had a son, 14 months after that we had a daughter. Somewhere around our 10th anniversary I found out that my husband was cheating on me with a good friend of mine. Did all of this make me turn against men? Probably? Did it turn me against religion? More than likely, because all three of these men were deacons at my dad’s church. I don’t believe in the sincerity of Christians. I don’t believe that men can remain faithful to a woman, or to Christ.
Religion is what each individual was taught. There are so many different religions in our world. Each one interprets the Bible in different ways. Who knows which one is correct, which one to follow to get to Heaven. I have decided to follow my own heart. I believe that being in love, taking care of your family, living a decent life, loving your neighbors (which in Bible terms is anyone you come in contact with), doing good things for people without telling anyone that you did it, and being honest with yourself, are the things that matter in life.
I am now a lesbian I live with my partner in a very nice community. We have a ton of friends (gay and straight). We are no different than any other couple that’s in love. We are committed to one another, we work full-time jobs, pay our taxes and our bills and we’re raising two very well adjusted teenagers. We are not promiscuous. We are healthy, active adult women who just happen to be in love with each other. We don’t push our lifestyle on anyone, but we don’t hide it either. If we walk down the street holding hands, we’re not trying to push an agenda on you, we’re being a couple in love. If we slow dance in a nightclub, it’s no different than a straight couple dancing. Life IS too damn short to live to please others.
The topic of this discussion, the quote, is meaningless. What’s really important, is each persons life and the quality of that life. As long as you’re not breaking the law do what makes you happy. If being a Christian makes you happy, then do it. If being a lesbian or gay is what you want, then do it. I just don’t understand why we all have to be divided. Why we are hated and discriminated against because of the way we live and who we love? I will never understand.
- Lesbian in the South
Posted by: Lesbian in the South | Oct 20, 2005 10:04:46 AM
Has this world gone crazy???? I think many are totally losing perspective here!!! In response to Pablo - Children need to be children and DO NOT NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO ANYTHING SEXUAL IN CONTENT OR NATURE UNTIL THEY ARE OLDER- PERIOD! No child should have to be made uncomfortable by any means of sexual expression forced on them,....I believe that is called -ABUSE! Why can't children be exposed to good wholesome, NON-SEXUALLY ORIENTED values ???? Isn't it bad enough that some children want to imitate their role models on T.V., and in the media to dress provocatively and behave according to their influence ? Gee, and then the parents can't understand why "Janie" is pregnant by 15???? What you expose yourself to...is what you are influenced by, so if you expose yourself to immoral ways, that is what you are influenced by !!! I am a Christian, a Bible believing Christian, who doesn't rely on"Religion" made by man, but by God's truths that are tried and true.I will not compromise God's word to suit my own agenda or purposes, and in that being said you need to know that God's word does not condone homosexuality, and you cannot twist , or make God into something he is not.I do not agree with gay bashing, I think it is wrong !!! The Bible teaches to not like the sin, but love the sinner, and fact of the matter is nobody that is liberal wants to have accountability for their actions, so they strike out against Christians.This too is wrong, but expected.I think it is also sad when liberals try to quote Biblical scripture taken out of context, to suit their own agenda and try to get the Christians off their backs by mistakenly quoting"Judge not , lest you be judged".There are 2 types of judging and they both mean different things.Matthew 7:1. This is speaking on condemning (Karino=Greek= condemning) someone unto death, and any God fearing, spirit abiding Christian should NEVER do this, but we are to perceive incorrect actions in a different type of judging (Anakarino=Greek=by someone's action's,behavior;"fruits"), and both of these kinds of judgement calls should never be done by someone who is full of hate, because they are in conflict with God's word then.These things just needed a bit more clarification.
Back to the reference on the homosexual exposure,.....Keep sex where it belongs....IN THE BEDROOM !!! I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE HOMOSEXUAL, HETEROSEXUAL, OR WHATEVER - I DON'T WANT TO SEE IT ANYWHERE I GO !!! I DON' WANT ANY KIND OF MEDIA INFLUENCE IN THAT AREA WHATSOEVER!!! WHAT IN THE WORLD DOES A COFFEE HOUSE AND HOMOSEXUALITY HAVE IN COMMON ???? WHY DOES THERE EVEN NEED TO BE ANY KIND OF SEXUAL REFERENCE ON A COFFEE CUP AT ALL????? We as a nation are really losing sight of what is important and we have totally lost sight of morality.We shouldn't be arguing about how something was worded, but that it was even put on the cup at all !!!! Why can't we just walk into an establishment and not be bombarded by sexual innuendos,advertising and propaganda??? Can't we simply just get a cup of coffee and enjoy it without all this junk????? Oh, to just have simplicity would be so nice!
Posted by: Vicki | Oct 20, 2005 10:51:35 AM
Homosexuality is an abomination. That's it to me.
Posted by: Josie | Oct 20, 2005 12:20:20 PM
I agree with Josie. It is so wrong.
Posted by: Brittany | Oct 20, 2005 12:20:48 PM
I am a Bible teacher in a public school, and I just wanted to show my class how adults can argue in circles about the dumbest things. Thanks for giving us a great example. Regardless of your views of this, the argument in and of itself is ridiculous. Wow, I really think that Christians are going to reverse this trend by getting up in arms about a coffee cup. Maybe everyone will repent now, and we'll all hold hands and drink a Coke.
Also...I'm sure all the homosexuals who have read this will turn away from their sin because of the great, loving comments that people have left on this message board.
I don't know. When I sin, what I love more than anything is for people to analyze the crap out of it and talk about me like I'm a piece of poo.
Thanks for the entertainment.
Posted by: Paul | Oct 20, 2005 12:25:20 PM
This is Bush's fault!! I mean, what about all the good things that Saddam did? I mean, come on...
Oh wait,
Sorry, I thought we were talking about some other stupid liberal issue...
Posted by: N. Sanchez | Oct 20, 2005 1:23:17 PM
Brittany again,
I just wanted to sya that I think this whole topic is a ridiculous watse of time. I mean, come on people, your arguing over a frkin coffee cup. GET REAL! It doesn't matter what it says on it, it's going in the trash anyways.
I mean, I believe that homosexuality is wrong, but just because somebody's quote about being gay is on a Starbucks coffee cup doesn't mean I should stop drinking Starbucks coffee, boycott it, and refuse to come with 100 yds of the place. You'll live, your coffee ain't gay.
I also see that most of the posts are basically pro-gay vs no-gay. And some Christianity is thrown in to. But that's not even what this topic is for. I'm a Christian, and I'll stand up for my rights and what's right and whatever else till my legs are to weak to hold me up, but that's not what this board is for. Obviously people in today's society can't read.
Posted by: Brittany | Oct 20, 2005 2:17:07 PM
To Craig Garver
You can NOT be a gay Christian. It goes against God and basically contradicts itself. God intended for man and woman to be together and marry. Not man and man, not woman and woman, not man and kangaroo, but man and woman. It may not ouright say "gay is wrong", but if God's tellin you that you can only be with the opposite sex, a little bell should go of in your head that says, "I think he's telling me that being a homosexual is wrong." If you were a true Christian, you would be heterosexual and would have given up homosexuality when you gave your life to the Lord. Obviously you kept a little portion for yourself.
I probably just contradicted myself if you read my other post, but I HAD to say something about this.
Posted by: Brittany | Oct 20, 2005 5:11:31 PM
Pseudo-random thought...
I wonder how many of these fanatic Christians (note: not ALL are included in that, just the ones who complain about a stupid cup) would freak out if they knew how many homosexuals were behind the scenes bringing the coffee to their neighborhoods. Yep, I work there too. My last job was with a group of about 18 people, 5 of whom were gay (including the manager and a supervisor). We provide equal benefits to gay partners, and are one of the most tolerant companies out there. Wow, what kind of rotten sobs are we? People shouldn't hate us for treating our partners with respect.
Posted by: BrownIdGirl | Oct 20, 2005 6:31:19 PM
mortgage rates http://www.mortgagerates-x.com
Posted by: mortgage rates | Oct 29, 2005 11:26:07 AM
Hi I agree its stupid too argue over a cup, however my only concern is that several retailers house Starbucks and I as a parent now have to check to see if my coffee cup is family friendly when I'm shopping with my kids. Its not just the life choiceits the subject matter, I wouldn't want anything about what age one lost their virginity on it either.
Posted by: Kaye | Nov 1, 2005 1:17:35 PM
"The Way I See It" is a program intended to inspire discussion. Which looks to me like exactly what it's accomplished, I don't know about you. It does not reflect the personal views or opinions of Starbucks.
The next major quote coming out is from "The Purpose Driven Life", and should appear right around January. Liberals and non-Christians are already just as upset about that quotation, and they haven't even announced yet what the quote actually says.
Posted by: E | Nov 1, 2005 2:27:33 PM
I'd also like to add that if the quote on the cup offends you that much, you as a customer have the right to request the baristas not serve you in that particular cup.
It's no more difficult than asking for another pump of syrup in your drink, and it won't cost you any extra.
Posted by: E | Nov 1, 2005 2:33:10 PM
Ok I just happened in here, and usually I just read and go about my business, but....
This subject has gotten way out of hand.
I am a christian, I am hetrosexual, and I like coffee ;-)
Anyone can use the bible to "back up" something in an arguement. So what? You need to understand that arguing with a bible verse as a weapon is not going to change someones views, or 'fix them"
I, personally find gay the gay lifestyle offensive, but.... thats MY problem, not the gay persons. "Hate the sin, not the sinner"
Everyone has their own views of christianity, and there all going to be different, but the ill feelings and arguments are not of God, your in Satans domain, He loves discontent. Thats where a lot of this conversation over a cup has ended up. What a shame, christians arguing over one mans oppinion.
I dont agree with christians bashing anything, or any topic.
"Let He who is without sin cast the first stone"
ALL sin is equal in Gods eyes, the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming
Problem? Do as Jesus said: PRAY without ceasing.
And one comment to Craig, You listed some of your "good" deeds above, was that for your glory, or the glory of God?
When we pat ourseves on the back, the deed loses some appeal....
God bless
Posted by: Nick | Nov 2, 2005 7:12:29 AM
I personally am very fond of the fact that I am a 16 year old girl looking up Starbucks for a school project when I find a website of supposed adults bickering like ninth graders.
Get over it!!!
Liberals suck, Christians suck, everyone sucks. Just say that, shut up and be happy.
Starbucks is a popular company and people flip out over it. Why must everyone take personal insult?
Grow up, kids.
Posted by: Vanessa | Nov 2, 2005 8:37:34 AM
A gay person does not choose to be gay; therefore it is not possible for one to abandon his homosexuality and turn to heterosexuality. Yes, it is true that a gay man can choose not to act on his impulses, but that is between each individual and his God. Many of the Christians on this thread are offering plenty of judgment, but no solution. According to them, it would seem there are only 2 options for a gay man: "abandon" his desires and marry a chick, which would be a lie and probably end up ruining the chick's life at some point, or live a life alone, without ever having the love and companionship that come from a close relationship. These are the options being offered. How would you straight babes feel if someone just told you to never have love in your life, period? Do you honestly think any gay person is going to listen to you and change his or her ways??? An individual's relationship with God is comprised of a lifetime of growth and learning. Lets not waste our precious time worrying about what others should do, because none of us knows or understands every detail of God's miracle.
Posted by: Boobikins | Nov 2, 2005 8:48:40 AM
Just mind your own business! Why do so many people care about what people do behind closed doors? There are too many, more important issues to worry about.
Posted by: R | Nov 2, 2005 9:59:50 AM
ive read alot of theses and the hole point is lost the only way your goning to heaven is to have asked jesus christ in your heart than only he can change you also god does not hate gays he hates the sin he loves you that is why he sent jasus he paid the price for you all you have to do is ask him in to your heart.you will have to boow before him on judgement day. he does not hate you he loves you. he wants you to have life full. he wants to be. your closest friend.god made man and woman not two men or women that is a lie from hell. hope you make a right chose
Posted by: deb | Nov 6, 2005 10:03:24 PM
Wow. Since he gave us the power to read and write, you'd think God would appreciate some spelling and grammar skills.
Posted by: M | Nov 6, 2005 10:12:26 PM
As a christian, I believe that people are judged according to their actions. If judging someone for doing something "wrong" is not morally correct then why do we have prisons full of inmates. God's love is everywhere, so everyone that opposes don't judge Him for being unfair.
Posted by: JOE | Nov 14, 2005 7:16:43 AM
Deb, you're an idiot.
Posted by: | Nov 14, 2005 2:45:32 PM
Whoever monitors this blog just deleted my entry because they can't handle a good dose of strait up common sense. Typical. I'm sure this entry will be deleted as well, but I know you're weak and insecure about your beliefs. I won't waste my time here anymore.
Posted by: Justin | Nov 17, 2005 5:59:13 AM
the bottom line is WE have All sinned and come short of the glory of God..read Romans. John 3:16 for God so loved the World that He gave His ONLY begotten Son...we are in this together..no one is better than the other...Unless We repent we will perish... We msut turn to Jesus no matter what our particular SIN is...love to you all
Posted by: charmane | Nov 19, 2005 12:26:57 PM
At one time in early history, the Sun revolved around the Earth. That was the scientific belief of christians until later being proved wrong. Alot of people beleved this, simply because some thought, "They are christian, they would'nt lie"! The same goes for today, in some cases, when christians look to our president, for example. IMO, crusading and protesting is no different than promoting hate and intolerance. Remember, these are the same people that stand for the death penalty, no animal rights (let alone human rights), government control over a womans womb, war, and constant babble of inaccurate history. And, for the record, don't think people on the left have any different ideas or agenda's. My point being, these groups are schooling young minds and electing are presidents based on symbolic literature. This should not be taken lightly. It's very dangerous!
Everyone who is mutually concerned,check
out 'The End of Faith' a book by Sam Harris http://samharris.org/
Cheers,
LiQUiD
Posted by: LiQUiD | Nov 25, 2005 3:22:39 AM
If to love another of the same sex is a "sin"...then I guess "sinning" feels great! Starbucks was the first company in the U.S. to offer same sex benefits to its employees...go Starbucks! The so called Christian "right-winged" extremists are so worried about who is sleeping with who, and who is going where, and protecting "family values" that it has gone astray. Its ideas of family values are dads molesting their sons and daughters and cheating on their wives. Or divorce seems to be another convenient out for most "Christian" couples these days. So all you "Christians" out there that are so apt to judge all of us "fags" and "queers" better watch out...we are all created in "God's" image....so he/she might be just a little "gay" themselves:)
Posted by: | Nov 25, 2005 1:31:35 PM
"My only concern is that I really wonder if 'bucks would print a mug with a verse from the Bible on it."
If Starbucks had cups with Bible verses on them, I'd keep my kids out of that place because I don't want them exposed to the perversion of religion.
Besides, I wouldn't care to patronize a business that supports the Christian Agenda.
Posted by: Balance | Nov 26, 2005 9:32:29 AM
I apologise for not reading absolutely everything that has been written in this forum and if I repeat something already said, however, my view is this:
I believe that there is nothing wrong kissing in public, as long as it is not too intimate. I personally am heterosexual but this is not relevant. As long as kissing in public is not too intimate then it should not matter whether it is two men, two women or a man and woman. I really don't see how holding hands or kissing can imply something that happens in a bedroom if children are not already aware of it.
Also, Starbucks promote fair trade, so any of you christians who argue against homosexuality and have a jar of Nescafe in your cupboard should readdress your priorities.
Posted by: El | Nov 27, 2005 8:33:55 AM
Hi,
Everyone should know that this quote is only put on grande sized cups, and are never included on kid sized cups.
All of your comments are interesting, and most are disturbing. Thank you all for being so "right"!
Posted by: topherglenn | Nov 28, 2005 12:05:38 AM
Here are some verses from the Bible which you might find interesting.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Jesus had just healed a man on the Sabbath day. He rebuked the Pharisees, the religious rulers of his time which bound up the Jews with multitudes of rules which were not about personal holiness but of the keeping of the flesh clean.
But he does ask us believers to judge by way of a KIND of judgement.
Example: I see a man strike his wife and thus I call him a wife beater.
I read a verse which says that man shall not like with man and when I see that happening around me the Lord asks me to have no part in it and rebuke it.
Noone (me included) likes to be rebuked. However, to expect Christians to remain silent on the issue is to admit that they would disobey the very commandment that they received of God.
Hate gays? No. We are to show love to people. But accept it? Never.
The Bible also talks against murder. Should murder become popular to do would that then mean that Christians who speak out against it are wrong?
Thus gays do not accept our attitude about homosexuality and vice versa. What's the issue here.
Does it mean that we are BETTER than gays? No. Just forgiven. And having the holy spirit dwelling within.
Did this quote by Starbucks bother me?
Well let me ask you this: if Starbucks had put on their cups "In God we trust and in Christ we stand," how would atheists have reacted?
Why cant we just get it through our heads that diversity is always going to be around and adversity as well.
You and I may not like the same colors (diversity) but that is not a problem.
When it comes to morals and that our children in schools have to take training in accepting gays as normal people ... you have many of us out here that disagree.
Normal in the sense that they can hold down jobs and do a great job. Not normal in the way that many of us were raised in Biblical understanding.
Is adversity such a problem? I find its how people ACCEPT the fight to be more interesting than that there IS a fight.
Wont cuss and fight with anyone here but for those of you that kept using the oft repeated section of scripture "Judge not that ye be not judged ..." remember the context, what it was speaking about and remember that later on in John, Jesus told those religious rulers (and believers) to judge righteous judgement. Some of us have a healthy respect for gay co-workers by the way. My boss was gay as well as another co-worker. We got along well, it never was a point of contention. I didnt agree with his lifestyle but how does that come into play in the work place unless our job called for us to take showers in communal quarters - there is where I draw the line.
Posted by: Bill | Dec 1, 2005 5:08:48 PM
Very lengthy post there Bill, but why do so many Christians make some crucial descions in life based on symbolic literature. Jesus falls in the lines of the "Great Mythological Hereos of Ancient Times". His story is VERY similiar to all the stories of Dionyisus, Zeus, Pledias and more. They all fit a pattern - 'Born in a special way', 'A star during birth', 'Their teenage life is non-existent but emerges as adult', 'Has a following', 'Is a King to his people', 'Died on a hill'....the list goes on and on. BUT christians say is the difference is, Jesus is real. But, the question is how do you know that? The FACT is no one knows!!! Anyone who claims to have the answer is going to attract a swarm of desperate people. The FACT again is NO ONE has the answer.
And your part Bill about the shower thing....in the military losts of men have to take a shower together and some may be gay. Taking a shower with them dosent mean anything sexual. But who have made it a sexual thing...which leads me to believe this may be a deep dark secret of yours or may be a childhood experience surfacing.
Peace,
LiQUiD
Posted by: LiQUiD | Dec 6, 2005 8:39:52 AM
It's interesting to see that a lot of Starbucks customers are indeed religious bigots. So much hate. I mean seriously, way to fit the stereotype anymore bible beaters. Can you say hypocrite? Last time I checked Jesus didn't run around telling us to hate people. Where is the love people? Where is the tolerance? I'm pretty sure Jesus would want that. Somehow I think you missed the millions of quotes about love and tolerance and focused on the one or two stupid quotes about homosexuality that were written by HUMAN BEINGS who hated anyone who wasn't Christian. I'm sure they knew that God wanted us to hate the gays. No, The bible is not truth, it was written by flawed, bigoted human beings. And if you tell me that God somehow told them to spread the word about hating gays, then you are truly ignorant. Jesus must cry everyday because lots of his followers have turned religion into the abomination that it is today. I hate you fags,I hate you because you had a baby not in marriage, I hate you for not being white, I hate you for not voting for George Bush, I hate you for being "Un-American," oh and by the way I love you Jesus, as well as every person who thinks exactly the way I do. Bigot, Bigot, Bigot, Bigot, Bigottt.
Posted by: R. James II | Dec 6, 2005 12:35:49 PM
"You can NOT be a gay Christian." says Brittany. So definitive! Who made people like Brittany authorities on deciding who is and isn't Christian? Please don't say the Bible - God's Word can be interpreted to support or oppose just about anything. Churches that claim to take the Bible absolutely literally are a fairly small minority, and they still don't agree with each other! Like it or not, Christianity is pretty diverse. It includes people as different as Pat Robertson, Jesse Jackson, Mel Gibson and Mother Theresa. You may not like flavors of Christianity different from your own, but isn't it better to focus on what you have in common?
Posted by: Jed | Dec 8, 2005 11:34:02 AM
"I am an Independant Fundamental Baptist... what the Bible says, we do." - Bill
Really? So if you have a "stubborn and rebellious" son, you will have him put to death by stoning? [Deuteronomy 21:18-21]
Will you marry and have relations with your dead brother’s wife? (Deuteronomy 25:5-6).
And did you know you can seduce a virgin if she is unengaged? But only if you marry her after.(Exodus 22:16-17)
Your daughters should be careful: If an unengaged virgin is raped, she must marry her rapist. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
"I was also reading how of all the GREAT things everyone does...the Bible clearly states that "Ephesians 2:8-9 For by Grace are ye saved through faith...not of works" - Bill
The Bible also says that love is greater than faith (1 Cor 13:13), that works have merit[Rom 2:6] and that faith without works is dead. [James 2:14-26]
Posted by: | Dec 8, 2005 12:34:00 PM
what is your point Bill? that you are a n independant baptist? sorry but this is confusing.
Posted by: charmane | Dec 8, 2005 1:12:13 PM
Bill's point is that he is a bigot.
Posted by: R James II | Dec 8, 2005 1:42:12 PM
So is GOD living in the Bermuda Triangle now or in the North Pole with Santa? Just curious:)
Posted by: | Dec 8, 2005 2:27:50 PM
why is a statement about a man finding his soulmate or love with another man so offensive
what is offensive is that christians would even patronize starbucks
dont they serve coffee at craker barrel
starbucks has a right to print any message they please as long as it is not foul language or ponography
Posted by: sgtbilly | Dec 12, 2005 6:28:45 PM
Someone is now using this alais...this isn't the real "Sgtbilly"...
Posted by: sgtbilly | Apr 14, 2006 6:12:49 PM
The bible says....1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrightous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind(homosexually). Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. We will all stand before our Creator and be judged for our actions/choices here on earth. I don't go to Starbucks...now that I've been informed I will not go to Starbucks. Homosexuallity is a sin is God's eyes...and if we continue to water down God's word....eventually murder will be acceptable in our society.
Posted by: Child of God | Apr 17, 2006 9:52:30 PM
The bible says Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death."
So until I see you kill the next kid who sasses his parents, STFU you noob.
Posted by: Holden McCrank | Apr 18, 2006 3:05:14 AM
Child of God-
Oh, did JESUS put in that "(homosexually)" in parentheses?
Posted by: barista c | Apr 18, 2006 11:01:08 AM
Gay people and their supporters thing that just because someone quotes the bible they are intolerant. Well, you all have another thing coming. There is a huge difference between what I think personally and what God actually wants of me. I'll be the first to tell you that I've known a lot of wonderful gay people in my time. I have no problem with them what-so-ever. But, if they want me to study the bible with them, I will not hesitate to "show" them the verses that state that homosexuality is a SIN!!
Just because christians quote the bible, does not mean they are "intolerant". Don't hate the messagenger, it's God's words that state that homosexuality is wrong! Your beef should be with your creator, not the messengers! I don't personally tell someone that being gay is wrong. But, if you want to know what the bible says, that's a different story......
Posted by: | May 18, 2006 4:01:41 PM
OK. Homosexual acts are sinful, thats why I like to do them. It is better to rule in hell, than to serve in heaven!
Posted by: Boston Starbucks Rebel | May 18, 2006 4:39:04 PM
Eeeek! I wonder what these "Christians" would do when they saw the Starbucks nearest my house, proudly flying the "Gay Flag" above its door!
Posted by: Newbiebarista | May 18, 2006 5:45:50 PM
There won't be anyone ruling in Hell, Mr. Boston, oh smart one! Have you read Revelation????
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 21:10
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:13-15
Call me crazy......but common sense tells me there will not be anyone ruling in Hell! But, that's just me.
Posted by: k | May 19, 2006 6:45:24 AM
well first of all..the world is already gay!!!and having a gay thing like that makes it more gay!!! and for people who take notice of that..than thats just gay!!! dont u think that, who cares if starbuck is promoting that kind of gay thing!!!
Posted by: wat the | Jun 5, 2006 4:19:21 PM
get over yourselfs, for real it's just coffee and you know what TIM HORTONS IS BETTER!
Posted by: kazzy | May 11, 2007 1:20:42 PM
get over yourselfs, for real it's just coffee and you know what TIM HORTONS IS BETTER!
Posted by: kazzy | May 11, 2007 1:20:44 PM
