Christian group objects to gay-related quote on Starbucks cups

A national Christian women's organization says Starbucks promotes a homosexual agenda because of a quote by author Armistead Maupin, who says his only regret about being gay is that he repressed it for so long. The quote on Starbucks' cups is only one of dozens used in "The Way I See It" promotion. (Seattle Times)

Comments

[Davy]

Man.... these right-wind christian groups really leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling, don't they?

[javajockey]

In my opinion, there is nobody quite so judgemental and close-minded as a "Christian", who, it seems, are the most non-Christian people around. Whatever happened to "Judge not, least ye be judged"?

[Friendly]

Please don't base your opinions of Christians in general on these people...I am Christian, and while I don't agree that homosexuality is right (according to the Bible), I don't agree with these people attacking a simple quote on a cup.

Good vibes,
Eric

[CoffeeBoy]

How do these right-wing folks have so much time on their hands? They worry about the silliest of things. GEEZ. I suppose that these folks supported Pat Robinson in calling for an assassination too? Now there are some screwed up Christian values for you!!

They are just quotes on a cup!

[Dunc]

"Judge not, least ye be judged"

Starbucks needs to get really snarky and put that on a cup.

[jillian]

they need to get a freaking life and cut back on the caffeine.

[writer_nw]

How do these open-minded liberals (you people) rationalize your close minded ideals when it comes to lumping all christians into one of the same? Not very liberal of you, is it?

And where do you get off Writer_NW lumping all liberals together as in "you people"

Boy it really never stops does it?

There are truly assholes everywhere.

[Amber]

I think some of you are missing the point of Javajockey's use of quotations. I agree, there is a big difference between a "Christian", one who has nothing better to do than gay bash and boycott Disney and a Starbucks quotation... and someone who is a Christian... "Judge not, least ye be judged".

And, I have to say, I do love how "There are truly assholes everywhere" now appears on almost every topic.

[Amy]

If that guy from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reads about this, his head will expolde.

[CGG]

Ah yes, my favorite right wing organization. Concerned Women for America. (Currently led by a man BTW) I guess drinking coffee now makes you gay which makes you a sinner. More silliness from the silly.

writer_nw is a known troll. Please don't feed it.

[Steve McCoy]

I'm a pastor of a Southern Baptist church. Here's my take on the Starbucks cup quotes. I'd love to hear your response.

http://www.stevekmccoy.com/reformissionary/2005/08/starbucks_the_w.html

Steve McCoy
www.stevekmccoy.com

[Barista xxxx631]

Thank you Steve!!!! For your fair and balanced article. I have to say that you made some wonderful points.

I would like to say this...I think that many people jump to conclusions when it comes to this very touchy subject. An open mind goes a long way in this world. What we truly need is less judgment by those who proclaim to be crusading for God.

-A Gay Christian

[Rae Whitlock]

My buddy Steve up there offered up some good thoughts. I'm also a Southern Baptist (though not a pastor), and my take on this whole fiasco is linked below . . .

http://rmfo-blogs.com/raekwon/?p=57

i would have to agree that starbucks supports "a homosexual adgenda"...

but i don't think it's a bad thing.

although your government does not support same sex marriages or rights of spouses, starbucks has always allowed for same sex couple to have the same benefits as 'regular' couples..
the benefit packages allow for common law, and same sex couples to be dependables and recieptiants - added to the benefits packages as if they were "normal" couples...

way to go starbucks for upholding the human rights charters and allowing human beings all the same rights...under whatever consitution it may fall...

[writer_nw]

Next time you call me an asshole you should offer up your e-mail address like I did. Don't hide behind your computer screen.

Coward.

[STARBUCKS GOSSIP webmaster]

Let's keep it civil and knock off the name-calling. I don't want to have to start blocking people from posting.

[Patrick]

Yea dont blame the christians. History dictats some of the dumbest things in history we're done by well meaning religious groups. They are groups that mean well, they're just ignorant. All I have to say is if you dont like our cups go get you drugs somewhere else.

I think its a good move anyways, its not a quote saying "being gay is cool,"

Its a quote about being true to yourself and accepting yourself as a human being, not about the morality of your sexual orientation! (which is nobodys business anyways)

[Tom]

The Christian church has much better things to do than complain about writing on a coffee cup. These sorts of people are acting allegedly as "watchdogs" for the rest of Christians, keeping them informed of current events supposedly worth their attention. As both a Christian and a Starbucks employee, I can assure you that no Christian I know would stop going to 'bucks because of the message on that mug. Its nothing new that Starbucks favors a more "left" view of things that many Christians today might disagree with. My only concern is that I really wonder if 'bucks would print a mug with a verse from the Bible on it. And if they opposed this view, wouldn't it be a bit of a double standard?

[Leedilee]

I agree Patrick. I find it interesting how many times the word "intolerant" comes up when referring to Christians. And yet, Christians are the most discriminated against for their beliefs which have the longest standing history of any religion. I would love to see some Proverbs on those cups. But it won't make me spend any more or less money on their products. I just like a good cup of coffee. Why do we have to "label" each other anyway? Either way, I think it makes God sad.

[Leedilee]

Sorry, I meant to agree with Tom, not Patrick.

[Don]

Sorry, not to get into any debate or anything. I just wanted to point out that Christianity does not have the longest history of religion. It would be somewhere between Hinduism, or Judaism I believe. Buddhism was started around a similar time according to most Western historians. Also, paganism (still in practice today) is much older than any other religion on earth. It's important to remember that the antiquity of a religion is not what makes it powerful.

Another point, Christians are hardly the most discriminated against for their beliefs. I think most Wiccans, Satanists and Muslims would disagree with you on that point.

[javajockey]

Ok, as to my above comment: Amber got it right...I just think that there are "Christians" who hide behind Christianity to put forth their hate-filled, narrow-minded, holier-than-thou agenda, and it makes me sick. There are indeed real Christians who believe and practice what they preach: Love your neighbor as you love yourself, and treat others as you would like to be treated. And I don't think the debate is whether or not Christians are discriminated against; it's whether or not there are hatemongers among them who use their religion to force their own beliefs on others. I happen to believe there are.

[John Smith]

just let them do as they will.

[arthur]

when will you people get your heads out of your "as_es"?

the issue is simply: do not proselytize homosexuality in a public forum. especially where children are present. starbucks is not an adult only establishment. never has been, never will be. that is primarily what people are upset about. what part of that don't you understand?

yes, you are out of touch with mainstream America if you think this is OK to do.

face it, whether or not you think it is ok to be homosexual does not give you the right to promote it in public. personally i could care less what your brand of perversion is. keep it away from me and my family. what you do in your home is your business. leave it there. do not bring it in front of children.

it is a shame that a large company can be so easily duped by the homosexual extremists into allowing this kind of controversy.

are the militant homosexuals giving the same kind of attention to helping the hurricane katrina victims? or are they prosyletizing there too?

i wonder...

[Annabel]

Does anyone else think that Arthur is protesting too much?!

[Cherie]

In regards to the comments about Christians being closed minded because they don't agree with gays is preposterous. A Christian is NOT judgemental because they don't agree with a perverted lifestyle that is specifically quoted in the bible as being perverted and discusting.
Some of these people, such as "Davy" need to read the ENTIRE bible, not just pull out one scripture and apply it to life. You can't pick and choose what scriptures you "want" to use in your life, and what ones not to use. What the Christians are saying is that they don't want to be "supporting" a group that "supports" gay rights groups because it goes against their beliefs, from the bible. That doesn't mean we'd turn our back on a gay person who needed help. It just means that we will not support their "gay rights". We will not help them legalize gay marriage. What ever they choose to do behind closed doors is their problem and they will have to answer to God when they die. We don't want to hear about their life behind closed doors. But, the gays are the ones throwing it in our faces every chance they get.
Our Christian duty is to love everyone around us, not help a group that we believe to be perverted, to legalize their perversion. If a Gay person was in need of help, they would still be helped by a Christian. (A true Christian). We just wouldn't help that person be gay or flaunt it around the world.
Here's an example: Let's say that a person has the urge to molest little kids repeatedly. Does that mean they should molest kids? Just because they can't help that they have this "urge", should we suppport them in their plan to have rallies and legalize child molestation? Is it wrong for a Christian to not want to be a part of an organization that supports people who want to molest kids, then? If Starbucks supported "Child Molestation Rights", would it be OK for a Christian to say, "Hey, I don't agree with this, and I want to be a better example for my child and stand up for what I believe in and, not support a business who supports that sick and perverted act." That's not to say that if a Child Molester needed help, we wouldn't help them, a Christian would. We just wouldn't help that person achieve the goal of legalizing "Child Molestation." If a Christian wasn't even willing to help a person, ANY person, then that Christian hasn't been reading their bible enough. But, don't lump them all into one, because the majority of them just plain and simply, don't want to "support" gay rights. It's not judgemental to just not support someone's views.

[Cherie]

Sorry, it is not Davy, that I was referring to as needing to read the ENTIRE bible, it was Javajockey.

[Research-Then-Write]

Interesting comments all.
To get back on topic... the cups were not pulled by "right-wing Christians", they were pulled by a food service company contracted to Baylor University in response to a complaint by patrons who found the quote offensive and inappropriate for a Baptist founded University campus. Seems odd that supporters of alternative lifestyles should have a problem with that as they themseleves often employ the tactic "this (fill in the blank) must be stopped because we find it offensive". The food service company simply wants to appease it's customer base; they're not making a values call.

As for the off-topic jaunt into the attitudes of Christians... I find it surprising that those who so ferverently preach the acceptance of homosexuality based on a plea for 'tolerance' are themselves so intolerant of opinions differing from their own. It is NOT tolerance if you really just want everyone to think like you.

I am simply trying to shed light on the reasoning behind Christians having a problem with the quote. I could care less if you think like me. But, before you people 'judge' Christians, maybe you should try to understand and listen to EVERYTHING that Christians are saying about the quote. It just seems that everyone is missing the bigger picture here. Christians don't want their children seeing these quotes on a cup, especially. We want to be a better example for our children. If we don't agree with homosexuality, then why would we go to a coffee shop where our children can read about it on a coffe cup? That doesn't make us judgemental, it just means again, that we won't 'support' something that goes against our beliefs. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm reminded of a cartoon featuring three panels of a man with a Bible beating a man wearing a shirt reading GAY PRIDE over the head with a stick. In the fourth panel, the man wearing the shirt asks the man with the Bible to please stop hurting him. In the fifth panel, the man with the Bible screams "OH MY GOD! CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION!"

Don't know why that came to mind just now.

[brokenjar]

What an interesting topic. I'm not quite sure where to side. I fully support the statements that as Christians we have absolutely nothing to fear, and only gain, by discussing homosexuality. In fact, more harm is done when the only voice heard is that of the screaming gay rights groups. The majority of Christians have done a disservice by backing down and avoiding the topic. It's sad that the conclusion many come to about Christians is that they're irritate and blisteringly mad at gays. Most Christians do have an attitude of love towards gays. But when you mention any dissenting view about homosexuality, regardless of how much it is couched in love, a common response is hatred and name-calling. We've been cowardly for too long. As a Christian who has been guilty of it too, I appologize. I should have stood up to the plate and spoken from my heart on many occassions but didn't. But God's truth won't be stomped out regardless of the name-calling or hateful responses. It's bigger than that. It's eternal regardless of the culture.

And I also agree that I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either. Think of how many child-sized hot chocolates S'bucks sells. Kids are going to see it. That's not cool at all.

I'll have to do some more thinking and praying on what is the best answer to it. But it's got me thinking, at the very least, about my part in all of this.

Blessings and Christ's love to each of you,
Broken Jar

"...when you mention any dissenting view about homosexuality, regardless of how much it is couched in love, a common response is hatred and name-calling."

Doesn't it just suck when people won't let you feel good about hating them? Doesn't it just absolutely suck? Because believe me, when you relay that message you're only trying to make yourself feel better. Perhaps it's because deep inside you know what you're really saying.

[Pablo]

"... Life is too damn short" As a barista, if I was to state this whole quote as my own to a customer (with kids or not). and ended the statement (regardless of homosexuality being involved) with "... life is too damn short". I don't think Howard would think too fondly of it. So why is it ok on a cup if I don't feel like I could tastefully say it with my mouth?
In a practical sense I don't think the qoute on the cup is appropriate.

your friend Pablo
(regardless of whether I am a Christian or not)

"I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either. Think of how many child-sized hot chocolates S'bucks sells. Kids are going to see it. That's not cool at all."

Have you actually read the quote in question? If not, here it is, yet again:

“My only regret about being gay is that I repressed it for so long. I surrendered my youth to the people I feared when I could have been out there loving someone. Don’t make that mistake yourself. Life’s too damn short.”

What, exactly, requires children to be protected from in that quote? Do you really believe that being honest about who you are is a "gay issue"? Wouldn't you want your child to be honest and open about who he is -- whether he's gay or straight? Republican or Democrat? Christian or Buddhist? Are you advocating denial, dishonesty and shame in place of it?

Or is it just a visceral reaction to the words "gay" and "damn"? If it is, I can guarantee you that your child has already heard -- and probably even said -- far worse in the schoolyard. If a child cares enough to read or remember the quote, I'd hope any responsible and involved parent would be able to explain the message.

[Jay Scott]

If someone is smart they would hoard those offending cups and resell em on E-bay. Starbucks and others should plaster the quote all over their gift items. And then it should be plastered all over poster, billboards (eh Robbie Conal), vegas style moving signs, trailing behind planes at the beach-put it all over just to annoy the he** out of those pontificating right wing/fundie/evangel/republican neocons.

[Craig Garver]

Just curious. As a gay Christian, a member of a wonderful, fully accepting gay-friendly Episcopal church, what, exactly, makes Baptists believe they somehow have a lock on "Christianity"? What makes Baptists believe they alone hold the keys to God?

My Christian values are no less valid than theirs. Hate and bigotry are certainly things our Saviour railed against.

Thanks Starbucks for creating the mug in the first place. Having the courage to stand up to hate is something Jesus would certainly applaud.

[cherie]

You know-I've always wondered how a gay-christian comes to be. Unless.....it's like a recovering alcoholic.....where you have the urge to drink, but you overcome it with the help of God-is that what you are 'Craig Garver'? A recovering gay person, trying to get over your urges? I'm just curious is all. You can't be gay and be a Christian....that contradicts itself. Either you're gay, or christian. You can't possibly be both. You just must be a 'recovering homosexual'.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:27

Read the whole bible! Don't just pick and choose what is 'easy' to apply to life and what isn't. Also, God didn't say that your every desire should be met!

[Craig Garver]

Cherie, I've read your comment and I've just prayed that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ opens your stone of a heart and that some day you too can know the love of Almighty God. Clearly you do not now have that kind of love dwelling within you. How truly sad.

It's also not "craig garver" as some pseudo name. That's my real name. I'm proud of who I am and know that God loves me for exactly the person He made me. I also pray that someday you reach the same point in your faith.

Perhaps you could read the entire Bible. You know, Cherie, there's only six verses in the Bible that even mention homosexuality, and Jesus never made a single utterance on the topic.

But he had plenty to say on fake believers (Pharisees and Hypocrites) as He took sinners, prostitutes, and tax collectors into His heart. Where are you? Fully one sixth of the recorded words of Jesus and one third of the entire passages of the Bible condemn wealth for it's corrosive effects upon the soul. Please do something about the plank in your own eye before you assist me in the removal of the speck in mine.

Where are you in your faith, then. You condemn me when you are clearly commanded by God and Jesus not to judge. Have you followed Jesus and sold all your possessions, given the money to the poor, and followed Christ wherever he leads you?

I don't have much, Cherie, but I gladly give my all to helping others. I'll stack up my good deeds against yours any day.

There's not one single solitary thing I'm at odds with God on, and I only pray you can say the same. Being gay and Christian is in no way mutually exclusive. Being filled with hate and intollerance and being Christian are as far apart as the east is from the west.

May God fill your heart with joy so that you can know Him as I and my fellow gay Christians do.

-- Craig

[Craig Garver]

Also, Cherie, I'm most certainly not a "recovering" homosexual. I'm quite proud of who I am and thank God for making me who I am.

Maybe you should question the "ex-gay" movement instead of out gay people. There's not a single reputable mental health group that supports the "ex-gay" claims made by Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, etc. A true Christian does not lie, and their "success" rate is less than 1%.

We no more choose our sexuality than you did. Truly, admit to yourself that you no more woke up one morning and decided to become "straight" than I chose to become gay. Human sexuality is permanently set by age 5. Only a con artist or a truly evil and sick person would even try to change another person to fit your own sterotypical views of sexuality.

There is one other reason that certain "Christians" take the vehemently anti-gay possitions they do. University studies in Georgia proved that 70% of homophobic men were physically aroused by gay porn, as opposed to 20% in the non-homophobic population.

Maybe before you condemn me, and try to stip me of what few rights I have, you might want to look inwardly and address whatever issues YOU have. I have none, thank you.

-- Craig

Anybody who thinks that the Baptist church is "Christian" needs to read this site...endorsed and run by a Baptist congregation:
www.godhatesfags.com.
Jaw-droppingly hate-filled and sick.

[javajockey]

Cherie:
Your idea that homosexuality is some sort of disease, and that it can be cured is really amazing. By the same token, I could try to cure you of being a Christian, because it is something you caught from your parents and you can be cured with the right discipline.
Instead of not being possible to be both gay and Christian, I find it harder to believe (and sadder, really) that it is possible to be so unforgiving and narrow-minded and be a Christian.

[Craig Garver]

>> "Read the whole bible! Don't just pick and choose what is 'easy' to apply to life and what isn't. Also, God didn't say that your every desire should be met!"

OK. Here's a few versus maybe you should consider also.

'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."
-- Lev. 19-18.

We are your neighbor. We are your children. We are your co-workers. We are your people.

"Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord."
-- Zec 8:17

""You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
-- Mt 5:43-45

"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
-- Rom 13:10

"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
-- Jas 2:8

And finally, since the ten commandments are such a big part of your lives, though too often completely ignored:

"For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.""
-- Rom 13:9

>> "I find it surprising that those who so ferverently preach the acceptance of homosexuality based on a plea for 'tolerance' are themselves so intolerant of opinions differing from their own. It is NOT tolerance if you really just want everyone to think like you."

>> "A Christian is NOT judgemental because they don't agree with a perverted lifestyle that is specifically quoted in the bible as being perverted and discusting."

>> "But, before you people 'judge' Christians, maybe you should try to understand and listen to EVERYTHING that Christians are saying about the quote. It just seems that everyone is missing the bigger picture here. Christians don't want their children seeing these quotes on a cup, especially. We want to be a better example for our children."

>> "I find it interesting how many times the word "intolerant" comes up when referring to Christians. And yet, Christians are the most discriminated against for their beliefs which have the longest standing history of any religion."

"They are always welcome in MY church. I just wish I was welcome in THEIR church." -- Gene Robinson, Bishop of New Hampshire, Epsiscopal Church. (who happens to be gay).

So about intollerance and persecution. Sir, do I go to the state and federal legislature to demand that your right to employment, housing, and equal protection under the law be stripped from you because you are CHRISTIAN? Why then do you do it to me?

Do you fear being discovered as a Christian by your family, friends, and place of employment? Do you fear walking out of your church could bring on a viscious hate crime, "christian-bashing?"

How exactly are your discriminated against? YOU are protected under the law in all these areas. I am not. You work actively and relentlessly to prevent my ever becoming a full citizen in my own country. I do not lift a finger to hinder your life in any single way.

Do you know what it is like to suffer real discrimination and persecution? Let me tell you.

I was "identified" as gay on the first day of school in Junior High. From that day until the moment I left High School, I suffered daily, relentless, horrific physical and mental attacks. Have you ever been thrown into traffic by a mob, hoping you'd die from being hit by a car? No? I have. Have you ever suffered such intense verbal abuse and pschological trauma from a crowd that there was not a month that went by in six long years that you did not contemplate suicide to bring the horror to an end? No? I have.

ALL of this was brought about by the "love" and "tolerance" of "preaching" "God's word" -- at a time I didn't even know what "gay" meant! I never once hurt a single solitary soul. I never advocated any position. I never did anything to anybody. My "crime" was that I was bookish and didn't play sports. Don't try to convince me that being Christian is such a life of misery. I'm both gay and Christian, and I darn sure never suffered one moment for being Christian.

How about OUR children? Gay teens commit suicide THREE times more than straight kids, because of the persecution. 80% of those kids that attempted suicide and survived, said that they had been gay bashed and that that was drove them to the attempt to take their own lives.

Run to Mom and Dad? Right. A huge segment of the homeless teen population is gay, having been made homeless by the simple disclosure to their parents that they were who they were.

What the hell kind of "loving" and "tolerant" Christian parent would do that to their own children?

>> "And I also agree that I don't want kids being exposed to gay issues either."

1. Yeah, he might grow up to be kind to his fellow human being.

2. You might stop your kid from being a gay basher and committing horrible acts of violence and torture.

3. You might just help your own kid as he or she deals with being gay. 13% of boys and 7% of girls ARE gay.

> Homosexual agenda.

Would ONE of your kindly tell me where this all powerful "Homosexual Lobby" is so I can kindly join it? I've searched for years and can't see anything more than a few helpless advocacy groups struggling against millionare televangelists. Go compare the Family Research Council, Concerned Women of America, and Focus on the Family to GLAAD, PFLAG, HRC, or any other gay advocacy group. Their annual budgets for staples would cover our combined budgets for generations to come.

Stop the lies and the violence. Look closely in the mirror. You'll cringe at what you see if you truly look.

[Cherie]

Craig-maybe all you needed was some serious therapy, and apparently still do!

I'm so sorry those things happened to you. They happen to kids all the time who are not gay, though. So, how dare you use being "gay" as a crutch to the horrible things that happened to you. Yes, it's very sad, but they happen all the time to heterosexual people. (My own, straight, brother.)

I agree that there are a lot of not so nice, judgemental Christians out there. I'm so sorry that you've encountered the kind of Christians you have apparently encountered all of your life. I would be filled with sorrow if those are the kind of people I knew, too. I just wanted to say, I'm sorry for the life you lead and have been forced to lead-referring to the cruel childhood you had.

May God be with you and whatever lifestyle you choose. I never said "I" personally judge you. I just wanted to say a few thoughts of my own regarding the subject. Yes, I feel as though homosexuality is no different then a sociopath, pedifile, alcoholic, bi-polar. Those people cannot help that they are those things, however it doesn't mean they should act on their impulses, whatever they may be.

But, we can argue this until we die, and it doesn't matter. What matters is that we each, individually, do the best we can to live according to the word of God. Yes I do agree that the bible is left a lot to "interpretation", and that what it says to some people, it does not say to others. God knows what is in our heart, and he will judge accordingly.

If you came to my door in the middle of the night, and I knew you were gay, you would still be welcomed into my home with open arms. I am not judgemental, because I won't go to a gay rally and "help" your cause, or because I don't want my child learning from other people that it is OK to be gay.

All that these posts have shown is that we are all so different, and think so different, and that is ok. What you do behind closed doors is your business, not mine. May God be with all of you, and hopefully we'll all meet up in heaven one day. I love you all!!

[Z]

I commend Craigs high and exceptional degree of spiritual intelligence. Very impressive. You really know your s*it, and can present it in an ethical, dignified manner.

*tuche!

[arcane]

Wow Craig, I might consider going to Church again if you were the preacher. Suddenly someone presents the idea that Christianity does not have to be intolerant and prejudice. Wow, I DONT have to dislike people just because they were born the way they are? Cool. The actual idea is...amazing...kind of like that time in history when blacks and minorities were considered the same way, and then..suddenly, some open minded person came along and showed us that it didnt have to be that way.

I've had an epiphany. It goes something kind of like, ..I have my own personal relationship with god.... that does not need to be approved by anyone, it does not need to meet anyone else’s standards, and I don’t have to adhere strictly to a book that was revised literally hundreds of times to suit the desires of tyrannical political pursuits. *gasp* and maybe...just maybe...its ok to believe that god ..loves....everybody? That I don’t have to settle with the ideal of a masochistic god who makes me a certain way then hates me for it? Awesome!

Considering that god did not make everyone the same race, the same height, the same gender, hair color, eye color, maybe god wanted people to be different? maybe the ultimate objective is to take down the walls we build between each other and stop putting them up? Consider maybe that we are all gods creations, and we all happen to be very different. Consider psychopathic violent dictators are the ones who exterminate 5 million people because they do not have blond hair and blue eyes. Consider that if you cannot hear the word of god whispering in your own ears, if you need a man written medium to objectify every component of your faith, then you need to re-evaluate your own relationship with god, and do not question mine.

[stix]

a hundred bucks says some brilliant person is going to come along and say "were not saying you have to be the same, there's just something wrong with you if your not heterosexual like us"

Then someone is bound to say -in so many words-
"I'm not saying theres anything wrong with gays, its just that I want to shelter my children from their entire existance so that they will feel ackward and prepetuate the same misunderstanding that I have towards them when they eventually run across them in their teen/adult years, which is bound to happen because homosexuals do actually exist, and will continue to exist weather I pretend it does or not.

And this vicious argument will ride the ferris wheel around and around until human mentality evolves up a notch, and we all figure out how to exist peacefully, and join efforts to concentrate on protecting children from real preditors and enemies like pedophiles and murderers.

[Craig Garver]

Arcane: You definitely "got" Christianity right! That's exactly what Jesus, the Apostles, and all early Christians advocated. Read Jesus and you will see just how radical He really was, and why he was such a threat to the established power elite.

The Bible is EXACTLY as you describe it. Manmade. It's full of contradictions because it was written over thousands of years, and most of the old testament (esp. Genisis, etc.) was an oral tradition for over a thousand years before it was ever put in writing. Great epic story of the Hebrew people, but "word of God" it is not. Even the New Testament nowhere claims that for itself!

The Bible is POINTS to God, but IS NOT God. It is man's attempt to understand that which is not understandable to our finite minds: God.

Our rector just gave a great sermon about this Sunday. If you examine the lives and teachings of Jesus, St. Francis of Asisi, and Buda, they all are remarkably similar. Abandon wealth and power, live simply, and you will live RICHLY.

You might enjoy "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and "Sins of Scripture", both by Bishop John Spong. Really eye opening!

Hey, you don't need me preaching. Just about all of the Episcopal churches teach this, every one of the Metropolitan Community Churches (gay), certainly the Univeralists, and even a lot of Lutheran ones, too.

Please, everyone, don't right of Christianity because of a hand full of bigots and hate mongers in a minority of denominations and those mega-churches. Examine the truth for yourself. It's a great religion because it is one of the most self-empowering forces the world has ever known.

May God richly bless your quest for truth and may your deepest questions be richly answered.

-- Craig