Judge refuses to dismiss Starbucks tips lawsuit

The ruling by a San Diego Superior Court judge clears the way for a trial next May on whether as many as 100,000 Starbucks baristas were shortchanged on tips because they were forced to share them with shift supervisors. The suit was filed in October 2004 by Jou Chou, a former Starbucks barista. Although the class action paints shift supervisors as part of the Starbucks' management team, Starbucks contends that they are not part of management and perform essentially the same jobs as baristas. (Read the story at San Diego Union-Tribune)

Comments

[deusx]

As a shift supervisor my day was as follows.

Come in, run open store procedures, count tills.
While a barista set up the bar for open I would set up the pastry case, brew our two coffees, make whip creams and ice teas. Then I would run a till while my opener ran bar for about an hour, during this time I would recieve the pastry order. Then we would switch. After three hours, my second barista came in. At that time I would send the opener on a fifteen and run bar. An hour later the third barista would come in and by that time we would be full swing. I would spend most my time hopping between bar and tills and/or floating and doing cafe sweeps to clean and restock. We would rotate who was on bar. T

Things would slow down around 11. I would split my time between doing any counts for orders that might need doing, assign cleaning lists (which included tasks for me) and rotate people out for lunch. At 1 a second shift (or manager) would come in and we would do a change over. I would spend the last hour of my shift doing some prep or cleaning.

All in all I did everything a barista did, I made drinks, I stocked, I cleaned, I ran a till, I poured coffee and I assisted customers with retail. On TOP of that, I placed orders, did counts, counted tills, assigned tasks and handled customer issues.

As a shift supervisor, I had as much labor and face time as any other employee. I contributed as significantly to the customer experience as any other barista...yet this son of a bitch Jou Chou (sorry, this guy needs an ass kicking) says that I'm stealing from him? My base rate of pay is a freakin DOLLAR more than a barista, I do their job PLUS part of a manager's job.

This shit is going to backfire spectacularly. Any tipped person who does stuff to draw attention of the goverment to their tips is a blooming idiot.

Jou Chou is a moron. His name is now plastered all over the world in association with this.... Good luck to him ever advancing at *$'s

[barista chica]

very good description deusx. shifts do all of the work of baristas as well as half of the managers work. at my store, shifts also do deposits (however, our asm does the ordering). i'm not a shift yet (still kinda new...and a little scared of all the pressure) but i plan on it - shifts deserve tips!

I can't belive that Starbucks contends that shifts perform essentially the same jobs as baristas. Yes, and everything the manager does except hire/fire partners, reviews, schedules and payroll. Without the shifts some stores would fall apart.

[deusx]

You misunderstand what they are saying. California law, which is stupidly worded by the way, says that anyone responsible for training or supervision is management(abridged obviously). The lawsuit tries to paint shifts as mini managers with little to do with the day to day labor of the store. What Starbucks is saying is that Shifts do everything a barista does, not Shifts only do what a barista does.

if i was still a shift i'd be pissed @ joe chou for drawing the attention of the government to my tips, cuz you can bet that he didn't report all of his tips as taxable income and the IRS is gonna be all over him and all the rest of you baristas as a result of that.

sorry joe ruined it for all of you!

[joe r]

To begin with, none of these slackers should even receive tips. I wouldn't tip the slobs at any other fast food joint, why should we throw money at the starbucks crew? It's not like they don't get a salary. For Christ's sake, if they don't earn enough that they have to live off my tips, then perhaps Starbucks should raise their prices and pay their employees better.

[barista to the wasps]

Joe- We DON'T get salaries. We get payed a crappy wage barely above minimum wage. If you want to bitch about tipping, post on the tipping debate. Our job is not easy, I would love to see you try and do it sometime.

Starbucks is a wierd organization when it comes to store operations in the fact that managers are supposed to be on the floor as well. Granted, each store will be different as to how many hours they will be on the floor, but in my store, and in fact in all three of the stores I have worked in, our manager and assistant managers spend more time on the floor than in the back doing payroll, schedules, ordering, etc. Managers get bonus, not tips, is how I was told the difference as to why we don't get tips, and if shifts share in that bonus, then no, they shouldn't get tips, but as far as I know, shifts get no bonus.

[deusx]

Managers should be roughly 40% on the floor, 60% admin. Shifts should be roughly 75% on the floor and 25% admin. Baristas do what the hell they're told. ;)

[CB]

Our baristas get so upset sometimes because our SM has scheduled himself 40 hours a week of noncoverage time. But at the same time The SM does all the ordering, scheduling, payroll, and all the tasks an ASM would do because at the moment we don't have one. On top of that the baristas hate when the shifts aren't on the floor either. Tell me I'm a manager, that's bull, I do all the same jobs as a barista plus making sure everyone does what they're supposed to. So what if I have to tell the baristas how to keep deployment and have to keep the shift running smoothly, I'm side by side with them all day. If I didn't keep things running smoothly there'd be chaos.

[mgr]

I have this funky idea and its not thought out all the way but here it goes..... The position of shift supervisor should be eliminated and there should be two positions created in its place. one position (just after barista) would be someone who runs the floors and gives out breaks and basically just focuses on the front of the house stuff. They wouldn't get paid much more then a barista but it would be a step up from barista. They would still get tips because they are basically a barista. The second position (just below ASM) would be a cash controler. they would handle all the money and deposit and such. They would also specialize in training, ordering and other back of the house activities. This position wouldn't get tips but would get paid more then a traditional supervisor does now. So to put this idea into an example - If your store currently has a SM, ASM, 4 SS and 15 Baristas. You would now have an SM, ASM, 3 Cash Controlers/Orderers/Trainers and 3 Floor Runners - You could assume that you have a new supervisor that would be a better floor runner then cash controler and you would have a few baristas who would be a good floor runners. Anyway I just thought of this right now and I'm pulling most of these ideas right out of thin air. Let me know what you guys think.

[ExSFBarista]

Managers = salary, bonus, no tips.

Shifts = hourly, no bonus, tips.

Seems reasonably fair to me.

[CINDYLOU]

MGR-

The idea sounds fair, but that puts more bodies on staff then there were originally (that is if I am doing my math right) which means that the company is putting out more money then by having shifts do the work of two people for less money....although it sounds good to those of us that do the labor, those that work the numbers would look at that idea and cringe :(

[MGR]

It would be the same number of people that a store has now but it would just change the rolls around a little. A high performing barista or a new supervisor could become a "floor runner" and a high-perfoming supervisor could become a "Trainer/Cash Controler/Orderer" I'm not sure that money would change all that much because if you had 5 supervisors making $10 an hour (approx) you would now have 3 "Trainer/Cash Controler/Orderer" making $11.50 an hour and 3 baristas making $9.50 an hour. I think it would work out.... Maybe I should suggest this to my RDO....

MGR-That's still an extra 13$/hr. I think it's a great idea.. but the pennypushers will think it's a horrible one.

[jabanga]

"Managers should be roughly 40% on the floor, 60% admin. Shifts should be roughly 75% on the floor and 25% admin. Baristas do what the hell they're told. ;)"

-DEUXS

we have had this debate before deuxs but this post of yours really proves my point that you will say anything to prove your point. where in the hell in als or any other stabucks policy or procedure do you find the labor for managers to be off the floor 60% of the time? you gave me that whole rap about planning and executing using your admin and your non-cov but any manager who cares about supporting his partners is still going to wind up spending at least 30 hours on the floor in an average week (obviously store volume and staffing can vary this number some...). 60% admin? give me a break. and shifts doing 25% admin? what world do you live in? and baristas "do what they're told" ? even with a smiley face with a wink that is not a very respectful way to refer to your partners. oh, that's right, you've got to "keep them from polisihing the stainless with their butts"...

[jabanga]

now on the subject of the tipping lawsuit i would say that everyone needs to realize that the law isn't always about right or wrong or fair or foul but about the law as it exists and how it is interpreted. i would assume some lawyers who know the laws in california regarding tipping and management felt this case was a winner and found a former partner willing to be the plaintiff. technically, with keys and codes, training responsibilities and a supervisory role shifts definitely could be considered management so perhaps california law forbids them from taking a share in the tips. i am not a lawyer or a judge but apparently a lawyer and a judge feel this case has enough merit to proceed. does it open a whole can of worms? yes. is it fair? no. obviously shifts work just as hard if not harder than non-shift baristas and serve just as many customers.

if the law is written a certain way and this case does turn out to have merit starbucks will have to alter its policies to meet the letter of the law. like it or not the laws of the land override a corporation's policies and procedures.

What a mess. Complicated too, because, as a barista, I am one of my store's primary learning coaches. That means I train just about every new partner we hire. Does that make me ineligible for tips??

If this results in a ruling barring shifts from tips Starbucks is going to be in some trouble. When I was a shift, I earned $1 more an hour than a barista. Our weekly tip earnings were often $2 or more per hour. And with fewer partners tipping out, that would only go up. So without a change in pay rates, promoting to SS would mean a significant CUT in pay. That's not gonna fly. The bux would have to increase SS pay rates by quite a bit, and that would get QUITE expensive given how many supervisors there are per store...

[deusx]

Jobongo,

You are taking administration as Starbucks talks about it. This isn't a starbucks meeting,most of these people don't work for Starbucks. I'm talking about administration in the actual meaning of the word. Admin just means they arent fucking scrubbing floors and making drinks. Admin is deployment, admin is training, admin is handling orders, admin is doing whatever you do that isn't basic brute labor.

And I didn't give you that rap, my S/O did. She in the past five years has taken three established stores and doubled their comps. I take her word over yours as she is obviously a far more successful and happier manager than you.

As for joking about baristas..get the fucking stick out of your ass, christ it was a freakin joke. Jokes aren't RESPECTFUL, how in the hell could you even make a respectful joke?

[Lynda K.]

Greetings,
I just discovered your blog and am now addicted. We wrote a quickie review at delightfulblogs.com and if you have time I'd love to have you submit it to the directory.

best,
Lynda

What's an S/O ?

[Lauren]

Problem is:

This issue isn't about whether or not Shifts deserve tips. This question is about whether or not California law is/should be written as such. I could see WHY they worded it that way, though in all honesty the study of law teaches you that law is the application and interpretation of the law. I think there is plenty of testimonial (here and elsewhere, hell at any store) that says Shifts are Baristas with keys and a few more duties (and trust with responsibilities).

Yes I'm a coffee master, but that was my choice (and Baristas can be them too). Yes I'm a Learning Coach (again, Baristas can do that). I've let my Baristas do an on hand count (my job) and I've closed down bars for them ("their" job). But really it's "our" job. And to take something from us that we rightly earned (Kevin, a regular, puts $100 in our christmas tip jar for the service WE give him. I drop samples off at his house, know his daughter's name and have been his friend for years).

Look, all I'm saying is the law is what it is and any good Law & Order addict (this is a joke before anyone goes rant-posting) will know that the must be upheld even if unjust.

S/O=Significant other. ie. boyfriend, girlfriend, life partner, husband, wife, etc etc.

[jabanga]

ok now you are really confusing me about the discussions i've had with you because they were in your name...are you now telling me you are not in fact a manager?

i stand by completely that in my 7 years as a manager on any given week i spent an average of 30+ hours on the service floor making drinks and serving customers and if i had not then my partners would have felt the pain of being short-staffed, my customers would have gotten poorer service and my business would have suffered. if you follow that 40% floor coverage 60% admin that you came up with from god knows where i would have been working 75 hour weeks to keep that ratio. i am glad your S/O is a successful manager and i can assure you i was one too.

the reason i took you to task about your joke about baristas was because i thought you were a store manager and as a store manager and a partner i always held my baristas in high regard and tried in earnest to treat them as partners and teammates.

Ok lets get real,the SBUX system of who does what is screwed up royally. I haven't worked at the BUX in awhile but we still discuss how screwed up it is on a regular basis because we're all in food service here. The root cause of all the trouble is that there are no GM's in SBUX world. Think about it. All of the back of the house tasks could be easily( and correctly I might add) completed if the Mananger could actually be a Manager and not the highest paid barista. When I became a Mgr. I was told I shouldn't work more than 45 h. a week. How could all the hiring, deposits, scheduling, ordering, training, and quality checks get done when I was on the floor everyday for 7h.with 30m for lunch? I had to be on the floor so that my store would operate within the alloted labor percentage. The bottom line is with all the responsibilities that a shift has they should get a bonus and it should be an entry level mgmt. position but salaried s/s with bonus would eat into the PROFIT MARGIN!!!!!! You see SBUX likes to report to the media how much money over the projected budget they made in the course of the year so there will never be GM's or salaried, bonused s/s's because they wouldn't make enough money and this is where they pull us suckers in. They spend all this time talking to us about respect and dignity and the third place and volunteering to save the environment that we forget that they are still there to make money no matter who's back gets broken along the way just like evey other profit making corporation in the world.

[deusx]

I was, I "retired" to take care of my kids. I got the coverage concepts from Starbucks themselves. The post clearly said who was speaking, I made certain when she stepped in that she identified herself.

The concept of spending only a certain percentage of your time making drinks, ringing up customers etc. as a manager was discussed when the job descriptions were updated. The suggested amount of "barista" time a manager should spend in a 40 hour work week was around 16 hours I believe. I'm fairly certain we have it in writing somewhere, I will check and relay where to find it.

I'm definitely sure there is a disconnect in your coverage if you are spending 90% of your week doing the job of a barista. That number just blows my mind.

[deusx]

Says another shill for the wobblies. Any one with any skill in developing staff, hiring and time management can easily fulfill and thrive at the tasks required of you in 45 hours or less generally.

Also, anonymous poster, you are on the cheapest crack imaginable. General Managers (im assuming you are talking about the restaraunt/food service type) spend MOST of their time on the floor running food, helping out the servers, jumping on the grill, doing expo, etc. I left that world to come to Starbucks and it was like a vacation compared to Roadhouse Grill.

[justanotherfriggincustomer]

So let's say that Starbucks removes all the tip jars from California stores. Who wins and who loses?

As a manager I should be a manager NOT a barista ... the reality is there are no managers at Starbucks, there are high paid 40 hour a week baristas who do "manager type stuff" ... its realy the DM that manages 8-10 stores ... we are window dressing /// our alloted time of 8 hours plus 15% of labor is not enough time to hire/firer/train/order/schedule/payroll/put out firers.........
I have been a manager at other retail stores and you are not a cashier / stock guy ... you are a manager
Salaried, huh...clocking in and out is not salaried..its hourly.

[Lizzy]

Dear Deusx,
The bottom line is this- While you were on the floor doing the work an hourly employee should have been doing who was managing your Roadhouse Grill- I too have managed food service and retail and I am standing by my opinion that 99% of the shit that goes down in SBUX is because there is no true GM- In other establishments that I have worked in of course I was on the floor to help out during the rush and ensure quality service but I was not scheduled as an employee on that shift because I also had BOH responsibilities that would need to be attended to. The employees did not expect me to ring their register so they could take lunch. There was another hourly employee utilized to do that.The smoothest running operations allow everyone to do their part. My roomate mananges a restaurant. Of course he helps out when its busy-of course he pitches in if someone gets sick- but he doesn't schedule himself bartend or flip burgers because he's the MANAGER and his job is different.

[jabanga]

so why did your S/O post under your name at all? there is no registration required here. find me a document that says a manager should spend 16 hours a week as a barista. i'd love to see it. its a pipe dream if it exists. then find me where i said i spent 90% of my time on the floor: i quite clearly said 30+ hours that would only be 90% if i worked about a 33.33 hour work week. it is, however, closer to 90% than the 40% you pulled out of god knows where. as for my knowledge of als standards and practices i was an als faciltator and an als specialist for many years and i know how to maximize als. i have achieved 90% efficiency for a full quarter and 87% for a full fiscal year. i know my stuff. do not assume that just because my opinion and experience of how stores run differs from you and your S/O i do not. while it does vary depending on volume and sales mix in general als standards require managers to be on the floor 30+ hours per week to serve customers. if the manager is not on the floor to serve customers the store will be short-staffed. if they try to schedule more hourly partners to fill that staffing gap they will not meet labor standards and will be promptly reprimanded by their district manager for coming in over labor. you call the "anonymous poster" a "shill for the wobblies" his post is a hell of alot closer to reality than any post i've seen from you. oh well, at least you stopped swearing.

[cmezoom]

I want to post my 2 cents on this topic for whatever its worth =). This is coming from a current store partner who has been a manager for 8+ years at sbux, which means I go back to before non-coverage even existed.

First of all, I think it's important to note that CA has labor laws are tougher than most, and in some cases, go beyond what the federal guidelines require. About 5-6 years ago, a lawsuit pertaining to OT came about where (Starbucks settled the case), in large part due to the exempt and non exempt status of their store managers, and whether they can be classified to be salaried partners. This lawsuit contended that store managers do less than the required percentage of work to be classified as exempt/salaried managers and should be eligible for OT in CA. Apparently, somewhere in the labor code there is a percentage tied into what a persons work should be to make them exempt or non-exempt as manager(Not 100% sure on that, but I'm sure some legal minds can shed some light). Well, sbux settled the lawsuit, paid everyone off and made SMs in CA exempt partners eligible for overtime. While they admitted to no wrongdoing, you have to wonder why they would take those steps, and then come out with re-defined job debsciptions....

What does this have to do with this case? Easy, Jou whatever makes the case for starbucks, seeing that store managers in CA don't do enough admin tasks as managers(or rather the job description) to fall under exempt status in CA. If that's the case, then you could assume neither do SS as it pertains to CA law. Back in the "olden" days, SS were expected to provide corrective action, help in placing orders, train, interview, etc. The current job descriptions is vague in where a SS is required to do duties that is classified as being able to be performed by a store manager only.

With admin time being taken away from ALS, and noncoverage increasing( depending on volume from store to store. My store currently allows 8.7% of my labor to be non-coverage assuming I come in net-net zero variance.) the days of SMs working 25-30 hrs a week doing the jobs of baristas are soon disappearing. Rather, they will/should have the time to do exactly what they were hired to do....manage small business, with all that it entails.

Lastly:

"our alloted time of 8 hours plus 15% of labor is not enough time to hire/firer/train/order/schedule/payroll/put out firers........."

No offense, but those things you spoke can be done if you're planning ahead, and appropriately managing the business. It sounds like maybe you need to take a class on priority management, as I can't find anything that Starbucks requires me to do to take more than 8-10 hrs a week to do. If you're letting go of that many people weekly where you're constantly doing hiring, training, firing, and "putting out fires" then you're doing something wrong.

[Raj]

And CMEZOM if you are spending most of your time being a barista then you are not a manager.

[Nickie]

We are always hiring, we interview and hire people every week .. the nature of retail is first level employees is six weeks hold, if you have people staying longer than that you are not only lucky but.....?
Managers should be doing the scheduling, payroll, training, interviewing, hiring/firing if needed, ordering, it should not fall to barista or SS to be dong these things. The managr should be the overseer of the store of the not primary worker bee.
I think the other poster is right on when they said that it really is the DM that manages 8-10 stores and the managers are just high paid baristas who get 40 hours a week.
As far as "fires", you mean you are such a good manager that there are never issues from customers / partners, paleezzze.
What is the volume of your store 10K a week that you have it so easy ... we are doing 35K and it is tuff going.....
My cousin manages a 24 hour store and she still is supposed to have only these 10+ hours to do her management stuff ... they have got to be kidding.

[JustABarista]

I wonder what they would say about the high performing baristas that "run the floor" while the shift is on break, doing the deposit, doing an order, etc.

[MGR]

"As a manager I should be a manager NOT a barista ... the reality is there are no managers at Starbucks, there are high paid 40 hour a week baristas who do "manager type stuff" ... its realy the DM that manages 8-10 stores ... we are window dressing /// our alloted time of 8 hours plus 15% of labor is not enough time to hire/firer/train/order/schedule/payroll/put out firers.........
I have been a manager at other retail stores and you are not a cashier / stock guy ... you are a manager
Salaried, huh...clocking in and out is not salaried..its hourly." -Anon Poster

Dude - Its called delegation. You get the most work done not by doing it yourself but by teaching and enabling others to do the job. If you are doing all the "hire/firer/train/order/schedule/payroll/put out firers" then you arn't delegating to your ASMs and SSs. And as for the DM really being the store manager? Thats utter CRAP! The DM being in your store once a month to do an MBDD and a meeting him a couple times a month at a district meeting is not enough for him to "manage" 8-10 stores. He does it though delegation by having one manager in charge of Frappuccino tracking, one manager in charge of Promos, and so on. The DM is just verifying that all things that are supposed to be done in a store are done. He works THROUGH the store manager just like a store manager works THROUGH the Shift Supervisors. In a store of 25-30 people the store manager can't possibly coach and train every single partner on each new promo drink. He has to coach the shifts and the shifts coach the baristas.

[jabanga]

in answer to CMEZOOM it is 50%. the standard of the fair labor standards act is that a manager's primary duties should be management tasks and they should spend at least 50% of their time managing.

[jabanga]

and 8.7% non-cov? must be nice!

Jabanga,

Most stores get around 7.5%, including a full 8 hour noncoverage day on Monday, which is plenty of time to get anything done you need to if you plan approriately. What you do with the rest of it is up to you. I used to work on the floor at least 30 hours a week, but it was always with a purpose -- one day coaching on speed of service, one day keeping an eye on beverage quality.

Quite frankly I'd be bored to tears if I had to do all the orders and set-ups and other noncoverage tasks, rather than dealing with customers.

I've known many managers in my time who tried to be GMs and all of them are no longer here.

[deusx]

Jabanaga,

I'm sorry Jabanga, to be mathematically precise, 30 hours out of 40 hours is 86% percent of your time, not 90% you sure got me there. Perhaps it is incredible skill with detail that allows you to be the overworked and resentful manager you are?

Btw, slower stores would be the ones where the manager actually works the most labor. Say you are pulling in 9 grand a week (SLOW) with a 12 hour a day store, you can only budget two shifts and three baristas a day maximum, which leaves you the manager to float and fill in where needed. In that low volume of a store, that will only be during peak times and during unexpected staff losses. In that schedule, at the most a manager would need to cover bar or till a total of two hours out of a day.
In a higher volume store, you get more labor and after a point it doesn't matter what your volume is as you have hourly employees at every station and post. A high volume store should also have an assistant manager, which further takes basic labor burdens off the manager. Realistically, the only time a manager in that situation need step in is during unusually peak periods of business and/or because of unexpected staff loss.

30 out of 40 is 75%

I agree, 30 out of 40 is 75%.

Deusx is impressing me more and more with all of his posts....

if SS aren't allowed to get tips then they should be a part of the bonus program pure and simple.

[deusx]

Hmmm, this is what I get for using one of those internet calculator things. Fine, it's 75%, even sticking with 90% thats only a 15% difference. This means you are spending 3/4 of every day doing nothing but barista work instead of roughly 4/5. Thats not the way it's supposed to be.

Also, my original 40% was spot on, as this time I did the math myself instead of being lazy and 16 hours out of forty is indeed 40%. SO by god, I can do math!

[Lauren]

Obviously it was a mistake (I mean christ, you can fault people for drunk driving but can you for tired calculator use?). Attacking someone for one small misstep is ridiculous.

And that goes for both sides.

We see things differently some feel a manager should be on the floor, others don't. I have my own opinions on them -- and you guys have a lot of energy behind how you FEEL things should be run. But that's how you feel...

I suggest that we get our opinions out there, take count of what others' are, and if there need be change -- contact the right people.

Don't attack one another for figures or beliefs, do your best to change that which is CAUSING the argument. Don't waste your energy trying to change the opinion of someone who won't change theirs.

[jabanga]

deuxs is completely 100% full of it. he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. you are right lauren. there is no point trying to change his mind because it is lost in la-la land.

i don't think that fair or accurate; nor does it contain any type of respect or dignity (which you were flaggin on him for lacking in your first post)

there are different types of managers, and different types of stores.

if you're spending more than 30 hours a week deployed, then you may not be maximixing your team.

if duesx' SO is able to spend 16 hours a week on floor, she is obviously doing something great, and probably in a high volume store that allows them the opportunity to do so.

i've been a manager for a number of years, with working anywhere between an 80 hour week (bad store, new me/manager) to a 45 hr week (great store, totally staffed, fully trainned, experienced manager)

currently i'm in the middle.

i know my week is longer becuase i am not able to do what i need to do (invest a lot of inital time to get long term payout/less working for me). i do schdueling and payroll. all else i DELEGATE to others.

i do corrective action (mixed with my ASM- need to develop them). and i hire and set up training. i could delegate the training schdules, but i'm too much of a control freak.

i also MCM on the side, and that adds a little time...although also a little to the pay roll, as well as reducing my labour costs by about 20 hours a week over 8 weeks...

so it's a balance.

you need to tighten up your game.
dusex needs to understand not everyone is as experienced or suavve as his SO.

and you both need tp remember respect, and maintaining self esteems.

idiots.
(LOL)

:)

[deusx]

Luckily, Im retired, so I know longer have to play the touchy feeling game. Starbucks may be a pretty great place to work, but the jingoistic rhetoric makes me want to scream from time to time. "Live the way of being?" Garbled nonsense.

Currently my S/O is rehabbing a "failed store". She walked into a 7500 dollar store last year with it maybe doing 5 percent comps. The store is still only doing about 11 grand now a week with 20% comps. So it isn't really a high volume store either. Even without an ASM, she spends a max of 20 hours doing things a barista can do. Yet she and most other managers I've known in Seattle and here manage to bonus on their controllable comps every quarter.

Anonymous you missed where all this got started in another topic that I don't remember. Jabango was unhappy with labor issues and if I remember, turn over issues. They described situations that often occur when there are time management problems, training issues and deployment problems. The number they gave were fairly unusual as well.
This was brought by Jabanga to this topic and the rest as they say, was history.

[jabanga]

ok here we go. i don't have to be respectful to deusx because he is not my partner nor has he been respectful to me. he also repeatedly misses the fact that i am no longer a store manager although i have told him that numerous times. he also doesn't understand that i never minded putting in my time on the floor i just find his claims about manager's not having to work signinficant amounts of time on the floor extremely inaccurate. for example:

"Btw, slower stores would be the ones where the manager actually works the most labor. Say you are pulling in 9 grand a week (SLOW) with a 12 hour a day store, you can only budget two shifts and three baristas a day maximum, which leaves you the manager to float and fill in where needed. In that low volume of a store, that will only be during peak times and during unexpected staff losses. In that schedule, at the most a manager would need to cover bar or till a total of two hours out of a day."

-deusx

this statement is completely false. in a store doing 9,000 a week you would be doing approx 1300 a day if all 7 days were equal. most stores are open 14-15 hours a day with partners in the store for another hour for opening and closing. als would give you around 33 hours for that workoad if it is not a drive-thru. even your hours for admin and order receive and variable admin would fail to give you another person because the workload would too low to bring you over the threshold to get a third person. 33 hours - 30-32 hours coverage (2 partners at 15-16 hours in the day). the manager will not have coverage to just make a brief guest appearance on the bar. the manager will be 8 of those coverage hours and while they will be able to bounce off the floor during lulls and get things done they will be floor coverage and only an indifferent and uncaring manager will leave their partners on the floor alone to handle even small rushes as you are trying to grow your stores business. als counts them as coverage. period.

[HopkinsBella]

Jabanga,

I understand that you dislike DeusX. This is not a defense of Deus. However, if you display your current tendencies to handle disagreement/argument like an unsocialized 12-year-old, I would not hesitate to fire you no questions asked. And if you feel someone is disrespectful to you on an internet forum, you honestly don't even owe them an explanation/answer.

Please utilize your superior management skills, and quit taking this crap personally. It's just a forun.

[HopkinsBella]

Crap. Perhaps I should utilize my superior typing skills and type the word "forum" instead of "forun." Sorry. This is what happens when I procrastinate.....

[Lauren]

Case closed? Please?

Can we just go back to civily poking fun at each other (I'm sleep deprived, you can't do math) and live with the fact that we have different theories?

Look at it this way: you both think each other are wrong. Be content in that each person is living their own little ignorant life being wrong -- at least it's not affecting you.

I take it back about forum support.

[jabanga]

"This was brought by Jabanga to this topic and the rest as they say, was history."

-deusx

actually, he was the one who brought this into this thread by claiming that manager's work 40% on the floor and 60% admin. HopkinsBella i was simply trying to contest the validity of this statement. he was the one who was swearing at me yet you say i am the one who's acting like a 12 year-old. as for saying he was 100% full of it it was a play on words regarding his screw-up on what percent 30 was of 40. i merely explained in my last post that his interpretation of starbucks labor standards he offered was not based in reality. which it was not. if it will make it seem like i only pick on deusx when he makes false statements i will address this one by an anonymous poster:

"Most stores get around 7.5%, including a full 8 hour noncoverage day on Monday"

this is also not true. the standard for non-cov since the implementaion of cleansweep has been 5.5%. also, stores do not get an additional full 8 hours non-cov on mondays: what managers get is 7 hours variable admin per week which many managers schedule on mondays and many managers do not get the full benefit of because of their sales volume. i understand from a previous post in this thread that this will be changed and the variable admin will be eliminated and non-cov will be increased to 8.7%which will be a better system.

yes, i have picked on deusx. it is because he repeatedly claimed i did not know what i was talking about or that i was a poor manager neither of which were true. i guess you had to be there.

we were there.

it's all in black and white.

the whole admin day is gone, as of april or may or something...better read your scoops!
:)

the whole point though is that you're obviously a differnet person from deusx and differnt from his SO. (shocking!!)

and as different people have differnet realities. thus the need for the whole diversity component to the mission statement that you see every day.

relax.

he already admitted that he retired as a shift.
his SO is obviously a high performing manager, and knows what she is doing.

instead of having a internet flame wars, why not ask what it is she IS doing that is allowing her so much time off the floor, so your life could be easier?

don't preach the guiding principles and then let go of them simply because he is no longer a partner.

I will repete...if you are spending your time (majority) on the floor being a barista you are not a manager, Miss jamba

[deusx]

Actually, in the aforementioned thread, my S/O explained fairly clearly how it all worked out, which of course, Jabanga had no reply to. I wish I knew a way to search threads other than going through each one individually.

No, seriously, what is an S/O?

[MGR2]

Jabanga,

You're wrong, or your leadership is. Maybe your region is behind mine. Yes, we lost the 7 hours of admin built into the schedule, but got 8 hours of noncoverage to replace it. The 5.5% is still in place (1% for tips, 1.5% for cleansweep, and 3% for other tasks) but you get 8 hours on top of it. For most stores, that's between 7.5% and 8.5%. There's an entire rollout of it that has happened already through Service with Speed. As shown on the KPM, the new goal is a Total Labor Variance of zero, not 5.5%.

[jabanga]

again i am no longer a store manager i was not up on the recent changes. i just know what they were historically. it sounds like the recent changes are for the better. i again want to clarify that i never minded putting in my time on the floor i thought it made me a better leader when i was fully engaged with my team. its just when deusx claimed it was some shortcoming on my part that i spent 30+ hours a week i took it personally because it was not. als expected me to be on the floor that many hours a week so i was, unless i had a meeting that week or a class to teach, etc. as far as what deusx's S/O is doing to only have to be on the floor 20 hours or so a week at a store doing 11,000 per week i'll give you the simple answer: i don't believe it.

[deusx]

Yes, of course I'm the only one that has told you that 30+ hours a week is not right. Selective reading for the win!

[deusx]

Yknow, I've reread your post a few times Jabanga and I see your disconnect.

Being on the floor and being scheduled coverage instead of admin are two different things. Being scheduled coverage doesn't mean you are necessarily working a machine or running till. It means you are AVAILABLE to do those things, versus admin time which should mean you are not. In a well run and trained store that is fully staffed the actual time you spend doing barista work should be fairly small.

For example, tuesday you are listed as 8 hours of coverage. In the morning, you would have you, a shift and three baristas (11000 dollar store example here). In the afternoon you would have you, a shift and two baristas. During your eight hours of coverage, you would step in to double bar maybe a grand total of an hour. Or step in a till. Really that might only be necessary during a morning rush and/or a surprise rush during breaks.

During that time period while you have a shift and three baristas, you would be training a new hire, conducting an interview, doing a count, placing orders, recieving orders, doing deposits,etc. This is not barista work, this is manager work. That would be the bulk of the hours spent that day, yet you are listed as coverage.

Over a week, you might spend two or three hours a day COVERING barista level tasks where needed. The rest of your time is spent in the aforementioned ways. If you are spending more time than that working bar, tills, cafe slides, etc. Everyone who has been having this discussion, including me has made it very plain we are talking about the percentage of your week spend doing actualy barista work. Not the percentage of ALS where you are listed as Admin.

[Lucky McBucky]

Hey all you anti-tipping people on here....

I understand that you would not tip the folks at a fast food restaurant, I wouldn't either. But I do, and I bet you do as well, tip my bartender for preparing my drinks by hand when I am in a bar or night club. HMMMMM....hand-crafted drink preparation, sounds like a barista. So if see a reason to tip a bartender, why not you barista?

I get very sick of people who refuse to tip and compare it to fast food. APPLES TO APPLES PEOPLE!

[jabanga]

deusx i managed stores in the 10,000 to 15,000 a week range as a manager. most stores in my market are in that range. you mentioned that your s/o manages a store doing 12,000 or so. in that volume you do not have a shift and three baristas on the floor with a manager "floating around". at 10,000 depending on store size, product mix, and check avg. you get 250-260 coverage hours per week (in a cafe/non-drive-thru store) or 33-34 per day and by 15,000 you are getting around 300 hours per week or 42-43 per day. the only time at this volume that you get 4 partners on the floor (including the manager) is during your biggest and most consistent peak periods, if it all. you are generally going from 2-3 partners on the floor, juggling breaks, doing dishes, cafe sweeps, etc. even if i was the r2 (the floater and cash controller) i was generally needed on the floor to expedite, make cold beverages and in general grease the wheels. yes i could grab time to check voice mail and email, run reports, get off the floor for 20 minutes to do the deposit but as far as just being an extra pair of hands that only had to man the floor during rushes or to cover a break that is just not the way the business model is designed. on the manager's day off with the shifts running the store you don't get any less labor. a manager's coverage hour counts the same as a baristas coverage hour unless is it as admin or order receive hour. as far as doing interviews, 1st impresions, cycle counts (i always delegated them i hated doing them), placing and recieving orders, reviews, one on ones, pdps, etc. i never did those things when i was floor coverage they were always done during scheduled admin time or non-cov because i would never want to have those tasks get interrupted by a rush or my floor be short-staffed because i wasn't deployed where i was supposed to be. it seems we are making progress in understanding (and respecting) each other. deployment is dictated by als and customer flow and the als does not allow for a "back-room manager" at starbucks. the floor comes first.

[jabanga]

having re-read the post of yours i was responding to i have to ask where you are gettying you idea of how much labor a store manager has available to them. you state:

"For example, tuesday you are listed as 8 hours of coverage. In the morning, you would have you, a shift and three baristas (11000 dollar store example here). In the afternoon you would have you, a shift and two baristas."

the reason i had previously said you didn't know what you were talking about is that i have never seen als give anywhere near the kind of hours you are talking about for that sales volume and i mean not even close. i would assume als works the same in all stores. what gives?

[Starbug]

Hi, I am a Store Manager of a 11, 000 a week store. I see an average of 725 customers a day.I am in a non drive thru store. My schedule puts out as an average, five people in the morning to handle the morning rush. Thats three baristas, one shift and me. In the afternoons I have four people, two baristas, one shift and me. At the end of the day all my numbers are in line.

It sounds to me that you guys are taking ALS at face value. Are you editing the schedule to fit your needs. I know I have to edit my schedule to fit my needs, because if I took it at face value I would probably be in similiar situations as you. Of course when you edit ALS you want to stay within Labor Rules. Are you guys encourged to use the " One to grow on " guideline?

[barista c]

Starbug - You have FIVE people on in the morning in an 11K a week store? That's insane.

I'm in a 14K a week store and we have three on in the morning and generally two for the rest of the day with a little overlap so we can squeak in a couple of breaks, and we are over on labor. It sucks.

[jabanga]

starbug has the lowest check avg in the history of starbucks. at 725 transactions a day times 7 he is doing 5000 transactions a week and doing 11,000 in sales for a check avg of 2.20. that is unheard of. maybe they forgot to install an espresso machine, blenders and a pastry case.

don't worry barista c you are living in reality starbug is not. any manager knows you can edit a schedule all you want and als still will set its allowances based on workloads. its funny that starbug said als yields EXACTLY what deusx sad it does. coincidence?

[Baristababe]

Good God Starbug, you are overstaffed! We are a 18000-19000 store and we SOMETIMES have 5 people, but usually 4 throughout the morning. It's nice during the rushes, but otherwise it's too many people. How can you handle 5 people with such a low sales?? Do you have three people standing at the cash trying to serve one customer???

[jabanga]

to get back on topic...imagine how lousy the tips would be with that many partners on the floor and those sales?

[Starbug]

Guys, I am not overstaffed. I am living in reality. I am not Deusx, I am his S.O. so perhaps that is why its familiar. I do about 725 people a day with an average of 11,000 a week < ytd>. My average check is about 2.30 due to the fact i sell a heck out of drip coffee, because I am a Downtown Store. Sorry if thats unheard of to some,I can at least think of fifteen other stores that follow the same model, maybe you don't get out as much as you think. I am open from six to six M-F. On Sat and Sun for 8hrs each. So seeing 725 people in a 12 hour period is alot.M-F I use about 46 hours a day. Just between 7-10 am I can easily do a grand. So i do need the people, in fact it was through my DM's encouragment to add the fifth person.In fact I was told once I hit 13000 a week I get an Assistant.In the last two weeks we almost hit it. Jabanga...just for your information our tips are great. In fact they are better than some of the 15,000 dollar stores we have in the district. I have a great store that is growing with great partners. I have a DM who is supportive. I make all my numbers required of me every month. I bonus every quarter on everything that is measurable. My customers are happy, and according to our latest Partner View so are my Partners. So if this is unheard of to you all that this actually happens. Maybe you don't know it all. I am a 12year partner and I do know how to run my buisness, and I do it within my 40 hour work week.

Wow. Life is hard for a store that closes at 6 on weekdays and open only 8 hours on weekends. You have no business even putting your two cents in on ALS, since those of us with stores open 18 hours a day don't give a crap about yours.

[Starbug]

Whew, at least with Jabanga it was a discourse between adults. Anonymous be quiet till you are old enough to sit with the grown ups or at least brave enough to not hide beind an anonymous post.

[Deus]

Grrr forgot to change the name, this is Deusx, not Starbug. Wish there was a log in function or something for this board.

[Deus]

So there you have it Jabanga, nothing more to say on this side. Believe what you like, but I'm done on this thread. We are beginning to attract the trolls and kids now. Good luck with whatever career you are doing now.

[Lucky McBucky]

ALS gives hours based on customer count, not sales, so Starbug MAY earn that amount of labor. However, the 2.30 avg ticket is a little suspicious.

In my market we have a downtown store, similar hours except closed on Sunday and they are pushing 90 transaction per 1/2 hour and earning 6 partners through the rush. They drive a 4.00 average ticket.

Starbug, try suggesting something other than brewed coffee to your 725 customers a day and watch your sales climb. You should be concerned about driving such a poor average tix.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong....

[jabanga]

if you are doing those kinds of transactions in a 12 hour day you probably would get that kind of coverage but that is certainly not typical. most stores doing 11,000 a week would be doing around 350- 400 per day in 14-15 hour days and that coverage would be spread out over the course of all those operating hours not condensed in the clusters you experience. i have never heard of a check avg anywhere near that low. bar drinks? pastries? customers getting 3-4 drinks? beans? congratulations on growing your sales so quickly. it sounds like your comps are actually a lot higher than the 20% deuxs said. no wonder your dm is allowing you to use one to grow to drive sales. generally, a dm only allows you to overstaff temporarily to see if the extra staffing allows you to earn another person and if it doesn't then your back to your previous staffing 5-6 weeks later. i just hope that both you and deusx understand the store situation you describe is not typical.

[Deusx]

"Starbug, try suggesting something other than brewed coffee to your 725 customers a day and watch your sales climb. You should be concerned about driving such a poor average tix."

Lucky McBucky, 20%+ comps. Last year when she walked in the door to take it over the store was barely comping and did about 7800 a week.

Ok, now I'm done, really.

I find this all interesting about labor..we are open from 4:30am to 11:30pm every day. Our sales are around 35K, and except for the mornng rush we only have two / or three people scheduled by the ALS (morning rush) four people.
And we are always over on labor...go figure.

ok, question. Aren't comps just discounts? Why would you want lots of them? Or am I confused on what comps actually are?

[sbuxmanager]

When a sbux person says "comps," they mean current sales verus the same day and/or week and/or month last year. It's one of the biggest determining factors for the stock price, only wall street calls it "same store sales," which is a company wide statistic meaning current sales of stores open 13 months or more versus same month last year.

ohh thanks sbuxmanager, I was thinking about the "comps" section on the cashout slip.

[jabanga]

i for one am still perplexed by the existence of such a low check avg. even if it is an extremely (and i mean extremely) high drip store what is the price of a venti in that market? and what is the espresso % (about 30%-40% in most stores) around 5%? pastry %? blended %? enquiring minds want to know...

[Baristababe]

jabanga, what is your avg check? We are just over 4.50, and we sell very few ventis.

[jabanga]

i am not referring to my check avg which was usually in the $4-$5 range i am referring to the $2.30 check avg starbug referred to...

[Baristababe]

Sorry I was unclear, I know you were referring to Starbug's unbelievably low check avg, I was just curious as to what yours was. But you've answered it, so thanks.

[Lucky McBucky]

Deusx,

I am not disagreeing with your assessment that 20% comps are FANTASTIC. I am merely stating that the $2.30 average ticket is abyssmal. Focus on even a .25 cent increase and that would add $1250.00 per week. I am merely using your math and suggesting an easy way to hit even higher comps.

I would not even have to TALK to a customer to get a $2.30 average ticket. I could get that in a vending machine.

Regardless of your personal connection to Starbug, you would have to admit that this average check is, undoubtedly, the lowest in the company. I have worked in 3 markets and never have I seen an average ticket below $3.50

Unless, of course, the numbers you gave are wrong, embellished to prove a point?

[Deusx]

Firstly, Starbug gave the numbers for customer count, etc. So I definitely didn't embellish anything.

Ok, Jabanga and lucky, I think the disconnect from what Starbug was saying and what you were thinking is thus.

Mon-Fri is the bulk of the business. Those are the 12 hour days. Sat and Sunday they are only open 8 hours a piece and do maybe 300 a day. She is only open those two terribly unprofitable days b/c the area is developing and she and the DM feel that having the store open before and as people being moving into new residential spaces will speed up sales growth in the long run. Currently Saturday and Sunday essentially boil down to alot of construction workers, cops and people waiting at the bus stop. Her already high drip percentage goes even higher those two days.

Last week the numbers were roughly thus: Customer count 705 Sales: 11,950 Drip: 70% Pastry 23 UPH. Rough check average was 3.15

These numbers are within a few percent accurate, I'm covering my hiney and not giving out exact figures so the beat stick doesn't come down for discussing real sales figures. That comes straight off her weekly recap sheet.

This thread has been so off topic at this point. I've come back to answer questions, etc. more than I planned. I won't be replying anymore in this thread .

There's probably some internal theft going on.

[TheCoffeeMaster]

this guy if a flipping idiot! no baristas or shits at starbucks claim their actual tips! ever! starbucks forces everyone to be taxed at an assumed 50 cents/hour in tips.... disovery? HA HA HA Yeah, they'll discover there is no trail to follow and that baristas all over sunny california are guilty of tax evasion!
what a stupid idiot to file this suit!

[jabanga]

a 3.15 check avg is believeable. the 2.30 was not. but at 12,000 you are now looking at more like 4,000 transactions a week not the 5,000 we had talked about before. the only reason i've been so nosy is it directly correlates with the alloted labor. that 70% drip # is still outrageous. just because its a business district nobody wants espresso beverages, frappuccinos or pastries? that is about $8,000 in drip sales and $4,000 in everything else.

[M]

Sell some whole bean to all those drip customers, that'll help your average ticket. Either that or start sampling some frappuccinos, espresso drinks, or pastries. If I was your DM, I'd fire you for losing so many potential sales.

[Deusx]

Lol you would fire someone for nearly doubling a store's sales in a year M? Wow, I feel sorry for anyone who had to work under you.

[jabanga]

so we went from 20% comps to nearly doubling the sales in a year? that's quite a jump. i think you have to understand that there are some aspects to these numbers as they are being represented that are questionable and that is why they are being questioned.

[Deusx]

7580 sales last year, 12,800 as of last week. I was under quoting the comps as I said I was. YOU also pointed out that comps where higher than I was claiming. It was discussed before that these numbers were rough, to avoid being busted for discussing company sales.

Now you are just be arguementative for the sake of it obviously.

[AB Pahtna]

DuesX, not to be critical, but "rough" is not a 30% difference. It is a 5-10% difference. Just a tip for the future.

[Deusx]

Ab have you read the whole thread?

[Becca]

sure have, why?

[jabanga]

actually, he's right. i am just picking at him now.

[Deusx]

Did you notice the opening salvo, oh twenty posts ago, where we discuss the sales figures of 7500 versus current 11000? Where we discuss that the comps % was being undervalued? I'm just thinking that perhaps, just perhaps, your comment would of made a little more sense waaaaay back there, back before it was discussed amongst the 500 or so of us that the comps were being undervalued? I dunno, but thanks for contributing to the thread I guess.

[Gary]

Why can't managers receive tips?

Here an answer for your. Because no one can except tips when businesses are allowed to require that all tips be pooled. Employer required tip pooling is a business practice that prohibits consumer's from determining for themselves who should receive a tip. When states errantly allow employers an ability to force their workers to pool and share all tips consumers present, consumers are subsequently prohibited from tipping individuals of their choosing. As a result the courts have to determine who should and shouldn't receive a share of the consumer's tip. In California the courts have determined that managers cannot receive a tip.

The courts now have the ability to determine who should receive a tip, as such, people who simply work for a living cannot receive a tip for tips have become the court's property to determine who it should belong to. You see, when the courts errantly ruled that state law allowed businesses to mandate that all tips be shared, the courts ruled that it is the courts right to determine who tips belong to. By allowing employers an ability to take tips away from workers who receive them so that they may shared among a group of workers, California has authorized itself to determine who should receive the consumer's tip. By errantly ruling that all workers who provide service to the customer may share in the tips collected from these illegal employer mandated tip pools, California has deemed tips to be th state of California's property that California may decide who should recevie them.

Tips are the customer's property, He has every right and ability to give them to anyone of his choosing. Employer required tip pooling deprives consumers of their right to determine who should receive their tip and as such should be correctly understood as an illegal business practice. California's reluctance to prohibt employers from collecting and taking their workers tips for a tip pool, is resulting in injustices for everyone.

Why can't a manager receive a tip and keep it as his own?
Why can't a worker receive a tip and keep it as his own?

Because employers are allowed to prohibit them from keeping tips as their own.

everyone ignore gary!!!

[Deusx]

Or just maybe Gary that unlike alot of other service based industries where tipping is common, you aren't recieving your service typically from just one person. As a waiter, my face is the one you should be seeing the most. It's my timing and organizational skills that commonly have the most impact on the quality and speed of your service and your experience.

At a place like Starbucks, up to at least four people would of had equal shares in seeing your experience was a good one. So who do you tip? The person at the register that warmly greeted you, that thoroughly answered any questions you might of had and helpfully suggested other items you might like? Do you tip the person who has been working hard to keep the condiment bar clean and full of fresh product, the floors clean and safely dry and the cafe clean and inviting? Do you tip the person who spends alot of their time honing their skill with the espresso machine so your drink comes out quickly and well made? Who engaged you in light banter as they worked the steam wand artfully frothing the milk just right for your cappuccino?

Tips are pooled because there isn't just one primary person that is coordinating your experience typically. It's a different world from the cab driver, the waiter and the barber whose individual skill weighed so heavily in your experience.

[Gary]

So what if several people are servicing me? Why am I being denied my right to spend my money however I choose. You see, we are talking about my money. Tips belong to the consumer, and as such, no one should be telling him who he should or shouldn't tip. You see, I know exactly why businesses want me to believe that I am supposed to tip all workers who help to provide good service to me. Businesses want me to to tip all their employees, regardless of whether or not I feel they deserve a tip or not. The reason businesses want me to tip all their employees, is so the business can eventually lower all these worker's wages. You see, if I tip everyone working for a business, the business owner doesn't have to pay them as much and as such the business can profit himself to my tip.

If I am prevented from determining for myself who should receive my tip, as is the case when businesses are erantly allowed to mandate that tips be pooled, the business will simply utilize my tip to pay their staffing costs just like they do with my payment of the bill. If unlike tipping, my tip becomes just an added item to the bill, my tip becomes the business's property. You see, I think that is fraud. While I am tipping to finacially benefit workers of my choosing, businesses are trying to deceive me into providing more income for them to utilize to their interests. Employer required tip pooling prevents me from determining who should receive my tip and as such enables business owners to control my tip to their interests.

Don't try to make me feel guilty for not wanting employers to control my money. It's a scam. While business owners and those that support them obviously want me to believe that I should let the business owner determine who is deserving of my tip, I know he is only trying to gain control of my tip so that he can benefit himself to it. Currently, workers in the restaurant industry are among the lowest paid workers in America. The reason they are among the lowest paid workers in America is because businesses are controling the consumer's tip and utilizing it to extort lower wages out of their workers. If a worker will not agree to work for subminimum wage, businesses can cut him out of the tip pool and it's all because they have been allowed to determine who is deserving of the consumer's tip. You see, when you errantly allow businesses to collect all tips so that they may be shared among a group of workers, the money can be utilized to the business's interests.

[Deusx]

Ahhh...I was expecting you to reveal your true colors and now you have. Take your wobblie ass on outta here. No one falls for your crap, no matter what names you post under.

[Deusx]

Oh by the way, most restaraunts dont tip pool, invalidating your point. Also Starbucks tries it's level best to stay as much out of tips as possible. The government forces them to be involved as much as they are.

It's kinda funny, tip splitting is as socialist as you can get. You would think someone anti business would be humping that leg like a horny terrier.

[AB Pahtna]

Gary, if you got to choose where your tips go, chances are, the poor bastard of a barista that has to unclog the toilet you just took a massive one in, will never see any money, because they didn't get the chance. At our store (licensed due to its location, but getting tips), we make our own food. You'll never tip the person making your food because 1) you never see them, and 2) they've probably gone home by the time you get there. Too many people influence your experience there for individual tipping. Not to mention, what are you going to do, drop your 4cents into someones hand and feel good about it??

[Gary]

Tips have been legally defined as the sole property of the tipped employee. What this means is that an employee who has been presented a tip is legally entiled to the tip he has been presented. When employers are errantly allowed to mandate that all tips must be pooled, it becomes impossible for a customer to present a tip to an employee, for the employer is going to present the consumer's tip to workers of the employer's choosing. Clearly when states incorrectly interpret their labor laws as laws which allow employers to mandate tip pooling, the consumer's ability to recognize who they are tipping is replaced by the employer's inistance that he will recognize who the customer is tipping.

You see if customers are prohibited from determining who their tip is intended for, then the law that states that tips are the sole property of the tipped employee becomes a law that protects no one. You see, there can be no tipped employees when consumers are deprived their right to determine who should receive their tip. How can I tip someone if the business refuses to let me determine for myslef who I am tipping. How can employees be protected when businesses are being allowed to prevent the consumer from determing who should be protected.

[SBUXSS]

Huh?

[Deusx]

Gary has too much spare time. And not enough anti-psychotic meds methinks.

[jabanga]

like waiters and waitresses haven't been expected to tip-out hosts and hostesses, bussers, bartenders, and dishwashers forever. it would be completely impractical not to pool tips.

gary:

here's your solution...
hand me five bucks and say 'this is for you'.
i guarentee i'll have all ownership and responsibility outside the juristiction of my employer with my fiver.

relax.
think of the solution: which in this case isn't a union.

[SBUXSS]

I have a feeling that Gary wouldn't be parting with a fiver any time soon. My guess is that he's just one of those people who doesn't like to tip period, no matter whose pocket it would end up in. Eh, I guess it's a fairly good argument (or excuse).

Like my father (a notoriously bad tipper) would say when it came time to leave the tip, "I shouldn't have to be paying more for my meal just because a restaurant won't give their employees a proper wage!" Uh, yeah, okay, Dad. Then I'd just slip back to the table and add a few dollars to the tip;)

[SBUXSS]

...or actually leave the tip when on occasion he'd leave nothing at all!

[Gary]

I love tipping. It's a person's liberty. It's what America is all about. However, let me tip.
Don't pretend like your letting me tip. It's my right to determine if I tip, who should receive my tip and how much the person I have chosen to tip should receive. If I am denied such rights, my tip becomes just an add on to the bill. If employers are going to control such things as whether or not I tip, who will receive my tip and how much those who receive my tip will actually receive, then they should inform me that they are not actually letting me tip.

You see, federal laws state that a tip is the sole property of the tipped employee. What that means to me as a customer, is that my tip belongs to the person to whom I present it. If my tip, instead is going to be controled by the business, they should have to inform me that I am not being allowed to tip. In my opinion, it's fraud if I am not informed that my tip is going to become the business's property to control to their interests.

As it currently stands, I cannot give you a tip and say "it's for you". You will not have ownership of the full amount of my tip because, currently, our government is allowing employers an ability to take it away from you, dispite your fiver. You see that's the problem. It's not only a problem for me, it's a problem for you.

When our government errantly allows employers an ability to mandate that the consumer's tip must be pooled and shared among a group of workers, they are depriving me of my right to give an individual a tip and subsequently are depriving the workers their right to accept a tip as their own. By ruling that employers may share the consumer's tip with a group of workers, consumers are subsequently deprived their right to present an individual a tip. By ruling that employers may share the consumer's tip with a group of workers, indivudal workers are deprived their right to receive a tip as their own.

Here is a fact very few people know.

In the early part of the 1900's several states passed laws prohibiting tipping. Here is how it turned out.

Dunahoo v. Huber, 185 Iowa 753 (1919) (statute violates the state privileges & immunities
clause because there was no reasonable grounds for allowing employers to accept tips and
prohibiting employees from accepting tips when "engaged in like services".") Ex Parte
Farb, 178 Cal. 592 (1918) (statute violates the due process provisions of the U.S.
Constitution and the freedom of contract provision of the California constitution).
Anti-tipping statutes were repealed in Arkansas, Mississippi, South Carolina and
Tennessee in 1925, 1926, 1922, and 1925,
respectively.

Likewise, it should stand to reason that laws which effectively prohibit an individual from receiving a tip would also violate the state privileges & immunities clause because there is no reasonable grounds for allowing a group of employees to accept tips and prohibiting an individual employee from accepting tips when "engaged in like services".")

There can be no laws which allow employer mandated tip pooling for such laws would be anti-tipping laws.

Gary, what do you not understand about the fact that Starbucks does not control the tips??? Empoyees count, sort and dole out the tips. Management has nothing to do with it!

Hey Webmaster, remember when you said you didn't want to ban people but....?? I think you should consider that "but" about now.

[Deusx]

"Dunahoo v. Huber, 185 Iowa 753 (1919) (statute violates the state privileges & immunities
clause because there was no reasonable grounds for allowing employers to accept tips and
prohibiting employees from accepting tips when "engaged in like services".") Ex Parte "

Gary, this ruling is not applicable. The employer isn't accepting any tips. So it has every right to tell its employees in what form or if at all, they can accept tips. Starbucks allows employees to accept tips, but with stipulations. I suppose, to make things simpler, they could just prohibit the employees recieving tips at all. Which is very much within their legal rights.

[jabanga]

and again i was a waiter for many years and was always "mandated" to tip out my support. well, i guess i didn't have to but if i didn't i wouldn't have been making many tips since my customers would be waiting forever for service as i made all their drinks, bussed all their tables, and washed all their dishes.

[nickname]

...no, the fiver would still be mine, as i'd put it my pocket - government and starbucks none the wiser.

(in canada we don't get taxed automatically on our tips, so that may be different from elsewhere.)

i like your fancy launuage though.

[Theolaxor]

Gary=Communist

If starbucks didn't pull tips, everyone would want to ring and work mornings and no one would want to ever work nights or on bar.

i meant pool tips not pull tips

[Charlene]

seriously, do y'all rush home just to pick at each other. i am also a manager with double digit comps who is crushing budget and has labor in line. you have to work at it and plan plan plan. i do 25,000 a week, and i only work 40 hours, plus i take classes each semester. you can't fight the system, you have to work it, and never! ever! trust als....she is an evil bitch...anyway, y'all are extremely amusing...please keep up the entertaining chatter.

[Charlene]

gary is evil too, and has WAY!! too much time on his hands.

[Deusx]

Someday if I grow up, I want to marry Charlene.

[jabanga]

als for a store doing 25,000 is completely different than als for a store doing half that. a manager truly gets the floor coverage they need to be a manager at that volume. my labor was always in line but i spent alot of time deployed on the floor to keep things moving along. all the planning in the world won't allow you to cheat als and get that 3rd person on the floor that you need when als (that evil bitch) won't give it to you. and double digit comps are no big deal unless your talking 15%+. i did 20% (and still didn't make budget once) last year and led the region at 39% the year before (yes that year i blew away budget).

and i thought you already had a significant other deusx?

how's that charlene? did i entertain you?

I want to work in a store that has 5 partners on the floor and only does 11 a week I worked in a DT store that averages 40-42 a week and we only had 6 in the AM, and we averaged a 96 with 4.5 stars on our snapshots. I think the key to our success is that everyone worked effiecently and we followed deployment to a tee.

[Charlene]

why yes, you did entertain me. i never said my store started out making 25k/week. you seem to spend a lot of time complaining jabanga. coach your partners, empower them so they can function without you there. also it helps if you hire people who have the potential to be better than your best partner. i am sure it is difficult to manage 11k/week, but you need to suck it up and make it work for you.

[jabanga]

charlene this is where deusx and i started going around about this. you really jump to pass judgement on me when you don't know much at all about me, the stores i managed, or any of the partners i worked with. why are you questioning any of my partners, my hiring practises or my coaching abilities when you have no knowledge of any of them? your the one that called als an evil bitch. i'd say that's a little strong. i'd just say its just a little stingy at certain sales volumes and workload levels which can impeed sales growth, good partner morale and legendary service unless the manager (salaried labor) fills the gaps by spending alot of time on the floor. i think that is pretty straightforward.

[Charlene]

of course, you are absolutely right. the world and the system are against you. it is the most difficult thing to manage a store that does what 1500-1600 a day. i am ever so sorry to have offended. i obviously had no idea what i was talking about. and i will be sure to remind my district, some of our stores do 35k+, that they are lucky not to have the tremendous chore of managing a store that does 11k a week.

[Gary]

Gary=capitalist.

Those who think Gary=communist are communists for they are the ones who want everyone to earn the same amount. Gary wants those who receive more in tips to keep what is theirs. Gary wants those who work slower shifts to keep their hands off the other worker's tip. You see when tips are pooled it is communist-like. When employees are allowed to accept tips as their own it is capitalistic-like. Tipping is a capitalistic custom for some workers will receive more than others. Tip jars and employer required tip pooling are communistic business practices for they share equally what is not necessarily given equally.

[jabanga]

charlene did i ever say managing a lower volume store was difficult? for that matter did i ever say the store i managed was doing 11,000? (i believe that was deusx talking about his significant other's store at some point). all i said was that to make your als standards work at lower volumes that (in interest of keeping the labor percentage from being too high) that a manager at that volume spends more time deployed on the floor. again, that is pretty straightforward and it has nothing to do with the world or the system being against me. where i took offense was when i was told spending significant amounts of time on the floor represented some lack of ability on my part when in fact it is what als (the system) calls for at that volume. obviously in many many ways a manager of a higher volume works harder and has more responsibilty. they also do not need to spend as much time deployed on the floor because the relative labor standards. that is all i have been trying to say all along and it is in fact the truth.

[oxxboyy]

Starbucks located at Northhills shopping center Raleigh, North Carolina has a problem with tip money being mishandled or stolen. Why would money be taken offsite for three hours by two employees and counted and baristas only average one dollar an hour in tip money? This will lead to an investigation by IRS. Why is there no accounting procedure in place to control this money and no paper trail? IRS has been contacted and how can taxes be paid on the tip money received when a similar amount is stolen????

[Kwiztas]

So I am a starbucks partner and shift sup. At my store we pool tips to be fair to all worked. those tips do belong to the people you give it to and we chose to be fair and share them with the poor partners who get scheduled to slow shifts why blame them. Back to main topic Shifts have are Baristas+ not managers.

[Gare]

Who are tips for when a tip jar is put out? Why shouldn't each workers have his or her own tip jar? I think the problem with tip jars is, while they imply that tips may be given, they refuse to allow consumers the choice of who should receive their tip.

While customers typically choose who will receive their tip. Starbuck's seems to be attempting to solicit tips without allowing customers an ability to determine who should receive them.

Why doesn't Starbucks want customers to choose, for themselves, who should receive their tip?

I believe Starbuck's, along with many other businesses simply want customers to pay their workers for them. If a jar is put out to solicit tips, shouldn't it offer customers a choice as to who they wish to tip?

Failure to offer customers a choice of who they wish to tip, clearly suggests that the business will dictate who receives their tip. The problem is, businesses have no authority to dictate who will receive a tip. That right is supposed to be the right of the consumer.

Starbucks should not be allowed to solicit funds to help them pay their staffing costs. If they need more revenue to pay their workers, they should increase their prices rather than solicit addition revenue through the use of tip jars.

Tips are supposed to be a way for customers to show their appreciation for good service, not a way for businesses to obtain more revenues. When businesses are errantly allowed to dictate who will receive the customer's tip, the benefits of the tip are transfered from the employee whom the tip was intended for to the business who the tip was not intended for.

Starbucks is currently utilizing their customer's tips to pay their staffing costs. By putting out a tip jar with no one's name on it, Starbucks is attempting to deprive customers of their right to determine who should receive their tip so that Starbuck's rather than the employees will benefit from the tips customers are presenting.

Starbucks should either get rid of the tip jars or put a name corresponding to a specific worker on each jar. Failure to afford customers a means to determine, for themselves, who should receive their tip clearly affirms that Starbucks attempts to solicit tips are not forthright and are instead extremely disingenuous.

Well, I got subpoenaed for this case, and I wanted to find out more about it. I came here since it was the top hit on Google. I continued to read the comments hoping there might be something useful, but it's just children bickering and having a pissing contest. As a former barista, I have little choice but to agree with Gary. Starbucks uses tips to subsidize their employees income. Is it a mutually beneficial arrangement? In some ways, yes. Starbucks maximizes their profits and baristas and shifts make a little more money than they would at McDonalds.
Do I think shift supervisors deserve tips? I'm not really sure. They're underpaid, as are most Starbucks employees. Managers don't make alot, and neither do assistant managers. At the store I worked at, including tips, almost all of our shifts made more than the ASM. My store was incompetently managed. We had 3 managers, and 4 assistant managers in the time I worked there as a barista (almost 2 years). The shifts were unskilled (for the most part, I am still good