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May 22, 2007

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Kat

"The Starbucks quote fracas may be doing exactly what it set out to do: It's spurring discussion and thought.."

Which is true. The problem is that you have people like the woman who is upset over this and would like to see it completely pulled rather than discuss (or not discuss). But I live in the bible belt and have yet to see anyone picketing Starbucks over the quote. I doubt this is hurting the company all that much, and suspect that the majority of people upset will eventually come back once the campaign is over with, if not before.

Religious lemmings not into any free thought or reasoned discussion?!
.......................................there's a shock:)

Beth

In addition to this one cup that speaks about the possiblity that God does not exist, there are quite a few cups that speak to the existance of God. Who is getting angry about these? Would these folks get the publicity about pro-religion coffee cups that has been spurred by the cup that questions God?

Angela

I made this guy a latte during the Sunday morning rush last weekend and he took it and came back a couple of minutes later asking me to put it in a new cup. The current cup was #147. He was very polite about it and asked not to have cup #147 or cup #150 because it was against his beliefs. Of course, the only cups available were #147 and #150. I ended up having to split his venti drink into two tall cups because he wanted nothing to do with that cup. He asked to speak to the manager, but she wasn't there. Hah, like we can control the cups we get.

Bill

Angela--- Why didn't you just give the moron a sleeve for his cup?

Or perhaps take a marker and scribble it out?

Shirl

I'm sorry. I find it confusing that when most people stand up for their convictions about the environment or human rights or such other beliefs, they are respected. Yet, a person stands up for his or her spiritual convictions, and they are dubbed morons. I guess it just says a lot to me.

Melissa

I just wrote a note to Starbucks about this yesterday. I'm agnostic and I keep getting the religious overtones cups - just luck of the draw. I'm not mad or anything like that; everyone's entitled to their opinion and I don't have any problems with people expressing their religious views. But I will be switching to a travel mug - just my personal choice and I'm sure an unintended result of the campaign.

Shirl

I realized that my earlier comment sounded curt, and I wanted to restate what I was thinking and feeling:

Look, I live in a world that doesn't believe in God. It doesn't offend me...it grieves me.

It's just that I don't understand how those who scream at the religious community for tolerance seem to have such difficulty giving it themselves. I personally would not have been offended drinking from a cup that questions the existence of God. It doesn't change my beliefs and values. I would still believe in God. I would, however, have an issue if I believed that that is the message that Starbucks wants to promote. Then I would have to consider whether I will continue to financially support them.

If the person behaved like a jerk, then he was wrong in his behavior, offended or not. He apparently was offended to drink from the cup and had no control over whether there were any other available cups. I don't see that it was such a daunting task to pour the coffee into two cups. It would have been a considerate gesture.

It just grieves me that people seem to so easily get up in arms because someone has spiritual convictions.

The next time you want to pass judgment on and call someone a name because they feel that they must stand up for their spiritual beliefs, remember that Mother Theresa had spiritual convictions as well...and she believed in God. Somehow, I don't think the Starbucks cup would have offended her because she believed no matter what. However, it apparently did offend this person, and I don't understand the lack of respect and tolerance for that.

Nicely put Shirl

Bill

Shirl----

Many memebrs of your community have an avowed "Mission" to convert all of us to Chrisitanity.

I know of know athiest or agnostic group that has a similar mission to convert you folks to reality.

Christians and non-believers seem to have something in common: conviction. Non-believers on this site seem to be as narrow-minded, stubborn, and pre-conceived as they claim the Christians are. And you know what? It's ok to have a strong belief.

I personally think that it's funny that the non-believers actually have a belief. They are defending their lack of faith as much, or even more than the Christians defend their faith. They have had bad experiences with Christians, obviously.

If non-Christians are getting so passionate about the subject (and rightfully so - it's a controversial statement), why then do they mock the Christians who are passionate on the other side? I'm obviously Christian, and I'm upset about the quote, but I'm not going to boycott or shove my opinions in your face. That's never how to get through to somebody.

You know what I'm upset about? The fact that this controversial of a quote came from a customer, a "modern day nobody". Not from a theologian, scholar, or even a celebrity. Just a customer with an opinion that is either well supported, or likely unsupported and biased. Who knows.

What I'm trying to say is if you don't like the cup, don't drink the coffee. Give feedback to the manager or to Starbucks. Let them know, then move on. That's the world we live in.

Christine

With everything going in the world and the environment it is so typical that the biggest dilemma we spoiled Americans have is whether or not a quote referring to religion is on a coffee cup.

Jeffrey

For the love of God (or lack thereof), it's a freakin' coffee cup! It's not a burning cross on the lawn or Satan's spawn disguised as a barista. It's a coffee cup! The religious folks need to get over themselves and move on to something more pressing. If your faith can be shaken by words on a paper cup, maybe you're not as "spiritual" as you think you are.

And the "non-believers" need to stop being so judgemental of this womans convictions. Hello Kettle, it's me, the pot. You're black.

Kat

As a 'non-believer', I try and not be judgemental of anyones convictions. They want to believe in God? No problem. But I get a cup with a religious quote, I'm not demanding they pull the cup or I will never come back, because I'm offended. I either just drink the drink and not worry about it, realizing there are those that will appreciate the quote, or if it truly bothers me ask for another cup. Sometimes they get what they want, sometimes I do, it's really not a big deal. There are bigger worries in the world, as Christine stated, than a quote on a cup for me to be concerned about.

Not a day goes by that in one way or another I am faced with ideals about God or religion that I do not agree with, but I don't get upset over it. That's just life. If I can handle it, surely religious people can handle my views now and then?

Boston Starbucks Rebel

I believe that we should all be free to pursue the truth. Absolute truths do just that, it sets you free from your little world of closed self to the possibility of an eternal, loving God. For in this freedom, can we realize how special we are. We are special because the great "I AM WHO AM" is an awesome God. He is the One who sacrificed Himself upon the Cross. By His wounds, we are healed.

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL

Bill

As one of the 70 per cent of people here on good ol'Planet Earth that do not subscribe to the Jesus myth, I am puzzled what evidence the Boston Rebel has that his imaginary friend is really there and has the superpowers BSR claims.

Pianocavitt

I am puzzled what evidence the Boston Rebel has that his imaginary friend is really there and has the superpowers BSR claims.

Bill - do you have concrete evidence that He doesn't exist?

Boston Starbucks Rebel

Well, if you have done any research into the Roman Empire at that period you will know that there is significant extra-Biblical evidence of the existence of a person known as Jesus of Nazareth. It is impossible to refute the existence of Jesus because. However, the question concerning "Who do you say that I am?" remains open for debate.
All I know is that martyrs have died for the sake of the Name. Why would they decide to die for a lie? It would be the largest hoax. Why did the early Christians willingly go to their death before the lions and cheering crowds? Because the message of the Gospel, is that of hope. Emmanuel, God with us, is here with us on earth.
Is it so hard to believe? To accept the gift of grace in their hearts? Is it impossible to say, "Forgive me Lord, I am a sinner."

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL

Bill

Pianocraft askedL "Bill - do you have concrete evidence that He doesn't exist?"

I don't have any concrete evidence that Unicorns, Dragons, Minitaurs, or Dumbo the Flying Elephant don't exist either. However, I am confident in my assertion that they don't.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

If they don't exist, then how are you able to speak about them. Most people would believe, that in order to speak about such objects, then your mind must've perceived it before. Therefore, this raises the question concerning existence and what that exactly means. What real exists? Do we live in a world of unreality? Do those who real love us, really love us?

Bill

Posted by: Boston Starbucks Rebel |
"If they don't exist, then how are you able to speak about them. "


It is called fiction.

A belief in a god or gods is not neccessary for love, reality or on a more simple level existence.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

You do not understand what I'm saying. For us to know something we have to encounter it with our senses. Perceiving objects in the world is the only way to know of their existence. Try describing the color red to a blind person or the subtleties of the waves crashing on the ocean to a deaf person? You can't because they are only to perceive these things and therefore they don't know them. Perhaps you should brush on your epistemological arguments to counter me beforehand.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

And some may say that we live in the shadows and are the unreal imaginary ones. Just ask a Buddhist or Hindu. We are all a dream of Brahma.

pretty shifty

hello god? it's me. I know it's been a while but I have a quick request. Grande no-whip mocha is coming. Please strike her dead before she gets to my register? she's a real bitch. and btw, if venti no-foam latte comes in, give him my number.

Hmm, I think I'm about to encounter a million dollars with my senses...

it better exist in my bank account when I look there tomorrow.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

Well, Jesus did say some people were PIGS, so I guess there is not much any I can say to such stiffnecked people.

Ron

BSR, I'm not really convinced your even capable of a logical reasoned discussion. Personally I think epistemological arguments and philosophy in general are not very useful in this day and age to try and understand the universe. Mere thought experiments will never reveal truths the way empirical evidence and science will.

I've just created a flying pink kwijibo god in my mind. It's never been exposed to any of my senses but I can sit and tell you all about it if you like. It's called imagination.

And that's exactly what your god is to most of the rest of us.

Go back and enjoy your crystals


Ron

...so I'm a PIG now because I don't believe in a mythical being that rules over me?

This is exactly the type of tolerance argument people rightly make about you types. You want to insist the world live the way you do and the you revile those that do not. You stop at nothing to try and turn the world into your pathetic view of nirvana.

Why can you not just let people live and be and be happy living your life the way you choose to while respecting that others be able to do the same?

Christine

Starbucks Rebel, I find your reasoning hilarious. How do you not know that everyone centuries ago were not smoking up the opium that is grown in the middle east and were hallucinating?

Kelly

What I really love about this comment stream is that people are actually getting upset about a simple discussion. It was just a cup. Really.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

Imagination in itself is very interesting. Considering the word for a moment we are asked to discern what is the origin of the word itself. The possibility is that it comes from the word "images" but how did those images arrive there. Interestingly, enough you try to use the materialist argument against mine, however I take a more Platonic turn and look towards Platonic recollection which would appear to answer all of the questions. I was hoping you ight stumble upon PLatonic recollection, however apparentley you are not intelligent enough to know about Platonic recollection.
Anyhow, I believe that philosophy itself is very useful. You seem to use a rather recent and narrow defintion, of philosophy and seem to remove it from scientific inquiry. Yet, if I recall, Newton, himself recognized that philosophy was a science, but a different type of one. And also, Aristotle stated that philosophy was a science. The most important field in philosophy is in fact ethics. I'm sure we might all agree that murder is wrong, unless of course your adherent of Islam, the "religion of peace" and some other tribal religion that eats people's brains but thats a different story all together. And oh yeah, since I am from MA, we cannot forget LDS, and who doesn't want more ass. And if you ever get tired of the family, you can simply play the wives off of each other and bang a younger daughter. But I digress, about my point, concerning ethics and philosophy. I would simply, just like to say that judges cannot come up with a simple legal definition concerning what is a person. Really, how does one go about that without coming back to basic questions of ontology? Philosophy is possibly one of the most relevant fields of study because it explores what is real, how we know what is real, and what we should do.
I believe the Lord said that we should one love one another as He has loved us . And there is no love greater than to lay down one's life for a friend.

He did not say we should go around killing one another so we can get 12 virgins in paradise. No, we should look for the coming of the Kingdom in this world, but lo, it comes to us now...

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL

Bill

I used to have an imaginary friend too. His name was Trevor. He quit coming around when I entered first grade and started making real friends.

I don't think Trevor ever mentioned having superpowers, though; but I could be mistaken on that count.

Ron

BSR,
Given my comments on philosophy I find it strange that you would expect me to "stumble" upon anamnesis. Why would I use that in my argument unless I believed it relevant, which I do not. It's a silly concept in my opinion.

Further, I did not say that philosophy wasn't relevant, I said that it isn't very good at the discovery of a truth. Most men of science during Newton's era were steeped in it and were rather pious as well (I think it speaks volumes about religion that they were often severely persecuted when they stumbled knowledge that veered from dogma, more evidence that religion is more interested in maintaining a power base than anything else). You failed to note however that they would discard it when it conflicted with observation. In short they may have used it to generate hypotheses ...... but then they turned to the scientific method. Care to show us where there is any philosophy in the Principia or Caculus? Good luck

Regarding ethics, I think that this is one of the more humorous arguments religious people make. I'm assuming it's largely because they do not believe or understand evolution properly. Natural Selection explains the development of our species sense of ethics fairly well. How would our species have survived if killing were an acceptable behavior, ect? Philosophy can think and talk in circles all it wants but neither it nor a mythical omnipotent being is responsible for it.

Lastly, your last two lines are a riot:

"Philosophy is possibly one of the most relevant fields of study because it explores what is real, how we know what is real, and what we should do."
Really? How? What great discovery in medicine or our understanding of the natural world has it produced? I'm willing to bet if you get cancer (and I sincerely hope you do not) you'll turn to science and not philosophy for what to do.

"I believe the Lord said that we should one love one another as He has loved us."
How exactly has he loved you? Wars, disease, crime, natural calamities and regular extinctions of species. Science can explain most all of this but if your god loves you so much and is so powerful then why subject you to them? I'm sure the victims think he's just a peach.

Boston Starbucks Rebel

He shed his blood upon the cross for the forgiveness of many.

Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, I think I see the word philosophy in there and it might be translated as Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. Pythagoras and Plato both believed that the world was ordered in a mathematical way so that human intellects could understand it. Therefore, if some mathematical principles are considered true, a priori, doesn't that necessarily mean that an intelligence had to create them to begin with for them to exist to begin with. Otherwise known as God.

Perry P. Perkins


"Religious lemmings not into any free thought or reasoned discussion?!.........there's a shock:)"

Ah yes, the famous, "Let's just talk about it until everyone get's tired, gives up, and let's us do it our way," liberal lemming approach.

LOL,

-Perk

Kat

Well, you can say to me 'prove that god doesn't exist' but I can just as easily say 'prove he does'. Either way, I guess we'll never really, truly know until death comes calling. If he does, hey, I was wrong, and if he doesn't, guess it won't really matter.

Way to go Kat.

Hey everybody! How about instead of arguing on a stupid website full of people with a lot of opinions but not a lot of facts, we just wait 100 years. Then we'll all know.

For we Christians, if we're right (as we have faith we are), we're be sitting in heaven with Jesus. If we're wrong, we'll be nothing. For non-religious types, if we're right, you may not be up there with us. If we're wrong, you'll be nothing just like us.

So I don't care. I'm not going to read these stupid anti-religious comments when my religions has an ending for me that is either better, or the same as other people's. If I'm wrong, I lose some offering money here on earth, and I live a respectable life. If I'm right, I gain eternity. Hmm...sounds good to me.

Words on a cup? Ask Imus if words through the air are that important. Ask Danish cartoonists if words are important? Words are powerful, and they're "just words on a cup" if they don't offend you.

Darleen

hello god? it's me. I know it's been a while but I have a quick request. Grande no-whip mocha is coming. Please strike her dead before she gets to my register? she's a real bitch. and btw, if venti no-foam latte comes in, give him my number.

Oh man that was good!! I laughed so hard coffee came out of my nose!! hehehehehe

Darleen

I believe that we should all be free to pursue the truth. Absolute truths do just that, it sets you free from your little world of closed self to the possibility of an eternal, loving God. For in this freedom, can we realize how special we are


Also well said boston starbucks rebel, everyone should be allowed to beleive in whatever "truth" they hold.

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL

I do not believe that absolute truths should be held to such subjective criteria. Instead, absolute truths are objective meaning that a rational intelligence is not necessary for their existence to be known. I believe that all people should pursue the truth to their fullest extent that their intellects allow them to. However, a person's subjective opinion is just that, an opinion which cannot be verified through any means outside of that person's experience. Truth is different and is objective, outside of subjective experience. The message of the Gospel is not hidden and it is not esoteric. People can easily pickup the Bible and if they are willing to, offer a critical analysis concerning the message and themes of the Bible.
It is my belief that the Bible is part of God's inspired revelation to the human race, that He loves us very deeply and has decided to reveal Himself fully in the person of Jesus Christ. God did not choose to remain hidden and unknown, but instead in the fullness of time was born of a woman. And we have beheld Him, full of grace and truth.

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL

Ron

Alrighty.......I'm getting a little bored with this one but I'll do a few final observations...:
BSR first.
"Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, I think I see the word philosophy in there and it might be translated as Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy."
-You misunderstood my meaning, I asked where you would find it used in the laws it postulates? You don't. Newton used testable observations and mathematics to come to his conclusions.

"Pythagoras and Plato both believed that the world was ordered in a mathematical way so that human intellects could understand it. Therefore, if some mathematical principles are considered true, a priori, doesn't that necessarily mean that an intelligence had to create them to begin with for them to exist to begin with"
-No actually it doesn't. What evidence do you offer that it does? Just because those two believed it doesn't make it so. Again, a belief is not evidence of anything.
Next for Anon:
"So I don't care. I'm not going to read these stupid anti-religious comments when my religions has an ending for me that is either better, or the same as other people's."
-Boohoo..... religion has been persecuting those who don't prescribe for generations and to this day is constantly trying to work it's way into our lives. Creationism in schools, prayer, jurisprudence, etc. When the god fearing ilk that want everyone to believe as they do stop trying to control the rest of us, then maybe we'll leave you alone. Until then tough.................and get used to it.

Lastly Darleen:
"I believe that we should all be free to pursue the truth. Absolute truths do just that, it sets you free from your little world of closed self to the possibility of an eternal, loving God. For in this freedom, can we realize how special we are"
- Most people are free to do just that except those who prescribe to a certain dogma. By it's very nature it limits your freedom of thought. How can you be open to new possibilities when they might conflict with you faith?

pepperminthotchocolategirl

I got the cup a few weeks ago, ordered a venti bold coffee..and I look and there's the cup in my hand with the quote. It is rather shocking to get that especially when you're tired and you basically see the cup saying that there is no God. I was told I should have went back and asked for a new cup, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to hassel anyone at the store over the cup. Granted the cup disturbed me a bit, but I hurried it up, drank my coffee, and turned the cup away from me during the rest of my drive. Plus a nice grandmotherly woman gave me my drink in the drive through, and you just can't go back and say excuse me, but can I just have a different cup to put over this, to someone who reminds you of your grandmother and who has to work the early morning shift..no one needs to put up with someone asking for another cup anytime of the day.

But it does hurt a bit, when you get that cup and you are a Christian. It makes you wonder how much Starbucks really cares about the customers and who we are. Everyone should be treated fairly and equally, and so why can't we stick to neutral topics that won't hurt people's feelings. Why can't we stick with the Steve Martin quotes on the cups that leave you puzzled? I'd like to have a conversation about those..cause his quotes make me scratch my head wondering about what that quote really meant.

Will I go back to Starbucks, no. I've decided Starbucks isn't the place for me anymore. Perhaps the speedway down the street is better, at least they just have their logo on the cups.

...Will I go back to Starbucks, no. I've decided Starbucks isn't the place for me anymore....


Will you be missed at starbucks? No, because people like you are a dime a dozen, go to speedway and enjoy your cup of mud.

Kat

"why can't we stick to neutral topics that won't hurt people's feelings"

Because part of the reason Starbucks is putting these quotes on the cups is to encourage conversation. Nice, safe neutral topics make for little to no conversation.

"oh, that was cute"

"yeah it was"

"so.....how about that weather, huh?"

pepperminthotchocolategirl

Will you be missed at starbucks? No, because people like you are a dime a dozen, go to speedway and enjoy your cup of mud.

Well with an attitude like that, I sure am glad I'm leaving. I don't need to be treated like that anywhere that I go. And I wouldn't treat anyone like that either.

As for a cup of mud..hey..ask police if they would rather have strong thick coffee that keeps them awake for their shift..or the watered down stuff that you pay big bucks for..they'll always say the thick stuff..cause that's what we want..to stay awake.

gina

you are absolutely correct. starbucks knows exactly who its customers are: people who don't know anything about 1.social inequalities and the dirt they pay their the starving people who grow their beans,
2.rainforest deforestation,
3.the real way coffee is supposed to grow, and
4.people who don't give a s**t about local entrepreneurs.

just look at the starbucks homepage and you will see a nice picture of mini coffee seedlings all lined up in a clear-cut plantation out in the sun probably in costa rica or columbia or maybe el salvador. if that picture is not enough to stop you from buying your next cup of coffee, learn about how much they rob their farmers. teach yourself about the people living in FORMER rainforest communities, pulling their children out of school so that they can work on the farm and pick your damn coffee beans.

(coffee is a shade-growing plant and needs the nutrients of a biodiverse ecosystem of rainforest trees, shrubs, epiphytes, animal droppings, fungus, and bugs.)

BY THE WAY: starbucks does have fair trade coffee. but you have to ASK for it. do your conscience a favor and ask for the fair trade, and when they tell you they don't have any, request that their store start carrying it.

Darleen

Angela--- Why didn't you just give the moron a sleeve for his cup?

Or perhaps take a marker and scribble it out?


I guess I missed this post awhile back. Why would you call him a moron? The guy felt offended, it was his day of worship and he didn't want any negative influences. I think it speaks more about your reaction.

Amy

I met the man who wrote the quote a few days ago when he came into the Starbucks location that I work at.

He said all the publicity the cup has gotten is ridiculous and that he should wrote a book called "The 56 Words that Rocked the Nation."

He was a really nice guy and although I understand why some people are upset over it I don't think it's reason enough to write off Starbucks.

Daniel

So...what? It's a cup. Doesn't anyone else drink their coffee and THROW THE CUP IN THE TRASH? Or is that just me? I mean, I'm not saving these cups forever...it just goes in the trash can when the drink is gone (the what?!) the DRINK...the real reason I go to Starbucks in the first place.

This entire thread is weird.

How about, "It is doubtful God will be hurt by the whole quote controversy".

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