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February 03, 2008
In Portland, independent coffee shops thrive while Starbucks sputters
Starbucks fans will call this columnist just another Starbucks-basher, but he make some good observations. Among them:
There is a moment in the history of every business enterprise where the commitment shifts from quality to profit, and Starbucks had its moment years ago.
Growth changed Starbucks' priorities. It now banks on the notion that customers will settle for less than the best if it's reasonably cheap, consistent, and brewed -- by automated machines, of course -- on every street corner.
He says when you walk into Coffee Plant and Stumptown -- two Portland independent shops -- "there is a different vibe, a far more personal approach to coffee, and a window into why Starbucks has grown so stale in our little corner of the world."
The fact is, this is happening in cities across the country -- coffee-loving entrepreneurs are opening up shops that are dedicated to customers, and not Wall Street. And traffic is headed their way, not to Starbucks. (Read the Portland Oregonian story)
February 3, 2008 | Permalink
Comments
great article and totally true. Starbucks is just another brand, and like mc donalds, you know what you're getting and why you're going there, and it's not for quality.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 9:38:20 AM
Makes me wonder what "Howie" thinks he can do to fix Starbucks' image. Even if he made his Portland shops' product, experience, etc. just like these independent shops people will still refuse to go just because it's Starbucks.
There comes a point when a brand loses its cachet and I'm not sure you can turn the clock back once that happens.
I fear that Jim Donald recognized this and took Starbucks down the path he did knowing that there is no going back to the "good old days". No longer the hip coffee shop but certainly the 800-pound gorilla in the marketplace and so how do you leverage that?
Posted by: SEADAVE | Feb 3, 2008 10:05:45 AM
Maybe true, but it says something that we are taking a risk and trying even if it is a lost cause... the word "noble" comes to mind... let's at least go down in this sinking ship with our heads high and with some integrity! It's the stuff Legends are made of...
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 10:24:17 AM
It's the syndication theory....talk to Bill Watterson about his ideas of that. No more Calvin and Hobbes because he knew syndication would kill his idea of what he wanted...this is exactly right----watered-down and no longer special
Posted by: shebrews | Feb 3, 2008 10:30:07 AM
The formula went into vapor long ago. The idea of a cozy coffee house with a couch and newspaper eventually gave way to a noisy, crowded building that has all the atmosphere of an elementary school cafeteria at lunchtime. The little independents are doing just fine for the most part thank you. In one small town very near here, there are five independent stands.The first SBX shows up 4 years ago and they're all still around doing just fine. Same owners. Goliath is looking tired.
Posted by: ledog3 | Feb 3, 2008 10:31:52 AM
As I've said before, each different coffee shop has it's special features and it's pros and cons. I love Starbucks. That's why I work there. I will always love Starbucks. The quality of coffee is apparent in the whole bean coffee we sell. ...have you tried a coffee press sample of Starbucks coffee versus another coffee brand french pressed? It's amazing the difference. But I ALSO love the independent coffee shops. They are perfect when I'm in the mood to sit and read or write poetry or even just people watch. The coffee shop I go to depends on my mood at the time. Which is why Starbucks will never die and also why the independent coffee shop will never die. There IS a place for both in this world, which many don't seem to realize. On another note, I'm very happy that Howard is back and I think that the changes he's bringing to the table will deffinately benefit both employee and customer.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 12:23:43 PM
these type of articles are probably 99% of the time written by some hippie who dislikes 'corporate america' and thinks starbucks has 'sold out' or something like that, so they try to say 'starbucks is in trouble' or whatever. id like to know how the writer comes about to think starbucks in portland is 'sputtering'. does he have access to their sales information and profit statements etc etc etc? i dont think so. maybe he interviewed people who go to those other coffeshops and they said they dont go to starbucks anymore. well then starbucks must be sputtering!
its just so stupid that these people can write an article on how starbucks is 'sputtering' and probably convince themselves that its actually true. starbucks is one of the largest food/beverage companies in the world and deliver great products. an independent coffee store probably has great coffee too, but to say like people are going to leave starbucks and go to independent stores and put starbucks out of business is ridiculous and ludicrous. if i had to bet, id say the independent store would be out of business within a year and there will be 10 more starbucks in the city. not that i want that to happen, but if i had to bet id say thats what would happen
would you rather be the president of independent coffee store 'a', or the president of starbucks. hmm i wonder.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 12:39:17 PM
A couple of days ago, I watched as this independent barista made a beautiful design while pouring a latte. That she was doing this while service a long line of breakfast customers was amazing enough. But that she was doing this for a to-go drink in a paper cup was simply astounding.
Posted by: CoffeeSense | Feb 3, 2008 1:25:38 PM
I couple of days ago, I saw a barista in an indie store more interested in her coworker than acknowledging me. What was more astounding is that I noticed chipped paint on her nails, and I was really grossed out- isn't that a violation?
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 1:37:50 PM
I would rather be president of independent coffee store 'a'. Selling my soul to the devil's not in my cards. Money ain't everything.....Knowing you can take pride in what you do, actually making people hand-crafted drinks allows me to sleep at night. You button-pushers will never know what real coffee is, or real espresso is supposed to look like. We can't all be gifted with our own brains, though. Quit drinking the Kool-aid Hungry Howie is doling out and think for yourself. You can do it, I know you can.
Posted by: Not a button pusher. | Feb 3, 2008 1:38:30 PM
Remember that Starbucks is still growing...all this fuss about how Starbucks "is in trouble" is silly.
While it's true that Starbucks has put itself int he wrong direction, Howie's influence is really starting to reverse that trend. I'd also like to say that the automatic machines themselves would have been fine if the company hadn't crunched on labor at the same time.
Some additional man-hours, training, and maintenance in the stores could get everyone on the same page and get a higher-quality and espresso-based beverage. The problem isn't the machines it's that most baristas don't airate their milk and almost NO stores check and adjust shots every hour...
I'm really convinced that in 80% of our customers drinks, the milk quality matters more than the shot quality. After they've added a bunch of flavoring and sugar, there's not a whole lot of coffee flavor left.
The automatic machines really don't impact our ability to steam milk properly.
That's my 2%.
In the end there's always room for locals...and for Starbucks too.
Posted by: flaubert | Feb 3, 2008 2:18:17 PM
While I do like, and frequent indie coffee shops, if I can't get the beverage I want, prepared the way I want it, I do not return.
I recall visiting a nice little hole in the wall in Northampton, MA that prepped a very nice cup of coffee, with pretty latte art... at about $6 for a small (or tall, if you will) size.
I questioned the price, since there was no menu posted, and was told that, "yeah, a latte costs $6. It takes a long time to learn to do that art, man."
Needless to say, I never went back.
In San Francisco, I had an exquisite cafe au lait, complete with latte art, for $3, about a 16 oz size. What I would expect to pay.
Except the barista was ignoring me, until a friend who is a regular yelled at him for doing so. The beverage was great, but the service was poor.
In San Jose, CA, I always stop at one of two places: Drinx, a parking lot kisok, or great little place in a strip mall (I can recall the name, but we call it "The Elephant", for the painting of the elephant on the wall.)
It isn't anything fancy, just a good, well made drink, at decent prices, and the people who make them care. The manager said that she loves the job, but confided that the only reason she can afford to stay is because her father owns the shop, so she gets free child care, and a decent paycheck.
In Montreal, I visited 5 indie shops, and was told that I couldn't get my drink the way I wanted, only the way they made it. (All I wanted was 1-2 pumps of chocolate syrup, 2 shots of espresso, and steamed milk. I 2-pump mocha latte.) Instead, I had to accept steamed chocolate milk with chilled coffee - they refused to pour shots, mix in the syrup, and add steamed milk.
I finally found a Starbucks, and got the drink the way I wanted.
So there are good and bad indie shops. Some roast, some don't. But other than a licensed store, the only negative experience I've ever had at a company owned Starbucks was at the Westchester mall in White Plains.
The percentage is higher in favor of Starbucks staying around for the long term.
Posted by: sbuxnewbie | Feb 3, 2008 2:42:39 PM
When I spent my year working at Starbucks in Michigan, I felt pride in working there - I really do feel as though customer service and caring about customers IS at the core of Starbucks, and that's something that isn't true for smaller shops. We always had tons of fun, were wonderful to our customers, had the highest tip rate in our district, and knew a lot about our product.
Although I worked at the bux, I did frequent some smaller coffee shops that had the artsy, indie feel. They were open later, some were built into old houses so there was room after room of art, acoustic music sets, and more. My starbucks had two cafe's, one was big in the back and one was smaller in the front. So I spent a lot of time there too reading, doing graphic design work, etc.
Now I work in a different state (not at a coffee shop, in an office) and every morning I need my iced soy latte. Starbucks here is right across the street from the indie shop. I still go to the indie shop every morning, and sometimes Starbucks at night or right after work. The indie shop's espresso is better, their drink is all around tastier.
However, except for one, their baristas are rude, not focused on customer service, are often talking in the back and see you, yet wait minutes to come out, and don't want to re-make drinks, follow your (polite) requests, or seem to really care if you EVER come back. The guy who owns the place is old, and when he's ringing people up in the morning, it takes forever. There's ever only one barista, and sometimes she's also ringing people up. The line is always long, and they do not rush. However, their espresso is just better, and that's what I'm paying for in the end.
This makes me miss going to Starbucks. And I wish that their espresso was stronger, because I would go back in a second. Every time I go into my local Starbucks, the baristas are wonderful, I never seem like a burden, and they make the drinks correctly every time. Consistency is something the local indie shop also lacks.
Another main problem with Starbucks, which I don't see brought up much, is their cafes. Now, I mentioned that my old store had two, relatively comfy cafes. Right now where I live, there are 2 Starbucks in a 2 mile radius, and neither one of them has a cafe that ANYONE could comfortably sit in. The seats and tables are all crunched together, you can hear everyone else's conversation, there's no space to relax, read, or just drink your coffee.
I really hope for the day that I can come back to Starbucks for a good drink, and also the coffee house atmosphere I've never really seen but have heard they once had. I worked with the automatic espresso machines, so I never had the chance to work at a Starbucks with any authenticity. I would love to go to a place where customer service AND quality actually were priorities, and I know Starbucks wants to be that place. I hope they can achieve it.
Posted by: vegan_designer | Feb 3, 2008 2:53:29 PM
When I first read this article, I thought they were referring to Portland, Maine but then realized it was Oregon. I was also looking at a local distributor who sold the old LM espresso machines. I realized that if I ever make enough money doing something else, I will definitely buy one and put it in my kitchen, right next to my turbochef oven.
In my opinion, the best way to make sure Starbucks espresso tastes great is by checking the calibration of the machine at all times. Just like you are suppose to check the temperatures of the fridges each morning and do a milk count, there should be an hourly log that is kept of the shot calibration. Furthermore, Starbucks should develop PDA's for all the stores that can easily log this information and then be stored in a central location. DM's can therefore easily check up on stores to see who is not logging information and therefore be held accountable. Truck drivers are tracked by GPS, why can't Starbucks learn to use all the tools available to them.
BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL
Posted by: BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL | Feb 3, 2008 3:29:17 PM
There are more and more examples of successful local coffee houses competing in markets along side Starbucks.
Many whine and complain that Starbucks has completely dominated the market and has made it impossible for other specialty coffee businesses to compete. That's not exactly the case.
A study conducted by the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA) in 2005 indicates that 60% of the coffee houses in operation in the US were independents, while only 40% of the coffee establishments in operation were large, scaled up chains like Starbucks. There is a link to this study at Starbucks Drinks - Love 'Em or Leave 'Em
Most definitely, Starbucks has helped establish and expand the market, the customer demand, and the customer base, but this only creates opportunity for the independent coffee houses to fill in and compete with a better product.
The coffee houses in Portland pointed out in the article are clear evidence that this competition is good!
And it doesn't suggest or spell the decline of Starbucks either, not by a long shot. As markets grow and expand, there's room for many.
Nonetheless, Starbucks, like any competitive business, does need to stay on its game, and competition helps drive the improvements we hope to see at Starbucks as well.
Mark
For a little amusement, be sure to cast your vote at Starbucks Drinks - Love 'em or Leave 'em. Are you a fan or naysayer?
Posted by: Mark Harris | Feb 3, 2008 3:39:02 PM
One of the things that Howard has mentioned about changing is better training for baristas. I went through two weeks of training and it STILL didn't feel like enough, yet that is way more than most other coffee places give for training. I'm looking forward to this! Maybe we'll have a more in-depth bar training course...kind of like the Coffee Master program they are re-vamping and bringing back. I would highly encourage everyone here to go to the Starbucks website and contact the company with your ideas for "getting back to the basics," etc. I'm headed over there right now! Partners and customers DO have a voice...you just gotta know where to use it. It will be heard, I promise!
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 3:50:49 PM
I love Starbucks. I'm not even a Coffee drinker!! I do like coffee frappaccinos, and this winter have even delved into the latte side of things (especially during our recent cold spells).
I haven't tried many other coffee shops, but I remember one that I tried in Sisters a few years back, in the middle of summer (Sisters Outdoor Quilt show week). I wanted a coffee frappaccino, and I asked the girl behind the counter what their version was called. She said they didn't have those on the "menu" but she could make one with no problem...nope! It tasted terrible. I went there again (my friend wanted her morning coffee) and explained to her it was very bitter....she said no problem, she would make it better this time (I do think they gave that one to me for free). NOPE! That one didn't come close either. The next time we went in I had someone else behind the counter...told her the story (I was going to just get tea this time). She said that she knew what the problem was. She asked me if it had whipped cream in it...I said yes, on top. She said no, no, no...it has to be blended in. She did that, and BINGO.....it tasted much better. Didn't taste like a Starbucks, but was good.
So...that being said, Starbucks is THE coffee shop of the world. We all know that we will get what we are expecting each time we go (not including mistakes by the baristas). I do wish that I had never received that first little sample cup of a Carmel Frappaccino....THAT is the drink that got me hooked, even though I don't buy it anymore, it was definately the culprit!
Posted by: Sharon Andrews | Feb 3, 2008 4:28:16 PM
Hey Not a Button Pusher, what makes you think that, just because we work for Starbucks, we don't know the artistry and purety of a good cup of coffee? I, frankly, am offended by all of you people implying that, just because I happen to push a button at this point in time, A) I've never used a manual machine before and B) you do anything better than I do even with my auto machine. I'm the type of guy that wants to go to barista challenges every year and if I had my way financially I would. Just because my button eliminates the tedious tamping process does not make you any better than me. thanks
Posted by: Nerfebarista | Feb 3, 2008 4:55:48 PM
OH and back on topic. They have a phrase for people that write crap like this article. I think it's called "penis envy". Now please go to your indie shops and quit spewing crap like this, no one cares.
P.s. I like indie shops too, my above statement is directed solely at the people that write retarded articles like this one. This guy clearly doesn't like starbucks so he should move on.
Posted by: Nerfebarista | Feb 3, 2008 4:58:41 PM
nerfebarista- it is safe to assume that you don't know any better about coffee, because if you did, you would clearly not work at startbucks. you would work somewhere that values quality in the cup, and maybe even participates in barista competitions.
and I am SURE that I can do anything better than you do, because I have had starbucks before. it is consistently crap. I cannot imagine that you somehow have magic to make the poor materials and equipment that you have at your disposal produce something quality. it's just not possible.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 5:25:20 PM
Uh, you don't know coffee, that's why you got a job at Starbucks. And you darn well know you don't know what real espresso is, and how to pull good shots. Do you know what a tiger-stripe is? Didn't think so. A super-automatic machine CANNOT extract espresso near as well as a manual pull, including the "tedious" tamp you have to do. (Wuss.) And you're coffee sucks, so get over it. You suck, and your coffee does, and that's no bull. Again, think for yourself and use the brain that God gave you, and Howie took away. You are, and will remain, a button-pusher.
Posted by: Not a button pusher. | Feb 3, 2008 6:12:19 PM
Boston Starbucks Rebel wrote: "When I first read this article, I thought they were referring to Portland, Maine but then realized it was Oregon...."
Yeah, the name "Portland Oregonian" is a bit confusing.
Posted by: Carlos | Feb 3, 2008 6:30:12 PM
Not a Pusher,
How is your 401k treating you, or for that matter your stock options, full health coverage, tuition reimbursement, and free pound of coffee a week? Oh, what's that? You work for and indie cafe and you get paid mediocre wages and have no safety net for your family. I'm sorry to hear that. You're still young and idealistic, so it's a great place to shelter yourself. And at the very least you get to use a genuine authentic manual espresso machine and you get to go to barista contests. Hope you have strong wrists, because the longer you use that machine the more jacked up they'll get from the repetitive tamping turning and knocking. And your employer probably doesn't offer affordable health care. If they do you're one of the lucky ones. That being said I started on the manual machines, and they do produce a better tasting shot and offer more creative options, but I just would not want to go back to using them given the high level of traffic in most starbucks stores,(probably not a problem in your store, as many first time customers are most likely turned off by your elitist air and innefficient deployment) it just wouldnt be worth the strain on my wrists, and your average Joe is not able to discern the difference in taste, as they usually want to avoid their drink even remotely tasting like coffee, but more like sweet syrupy milk. I think I'll keep pressing my button, and take pride every time my finger makes contact.
Posted by: Von Brucen | Feb 3, 2008 6:46:06 PM
Von Brucen,
that was amazing.
Posted by: vegan_designer | Feb 3, 2008 7:01:45 PM
Hi I know that this really isn't the topic but I just wanted to say that I went to McDonalds today(and I like never go there)(I hate McDonalds and most fast food) and tried their iced coffee. I only wanted to try it because of what has been said about how some people rate it higher then starbucks(I've never even compared them). I have to say that I will definately not be ever getting it again. It was horrible, flavorless coffee. It would be my last choice. I didn't like it at all and could barely even taste the coffee. So starbucks is still on the top of my list!!
Posted by: jeannie | Feb 3, 2008 7:06:56 PM
I am so proud to work with you all!
When I see the few usuals here who are obviously nervous that they're losing their audience, and continuing their cynical rants, a song keeps popping into my head(sing it with me...):
"Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving
Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
I'm running and I won't touch ground
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving"
Posted by: SoCalSnowBunny | Feb 3, 2008 7:32:19 PM
As a Sbux barista from Portland, OR, I disagree with the columnist - Starbucks is going nowhere out of Portland. It is a popular spot even though we have so many great indie places. Consistency and friendliness is what Portlanders appreciate about Starbucks. Stumptown is very popular too, but most people appreciate both brands at the same time. At least that's how I see it. I've noticed most of the Starbucks in P-town have cute cafes; remodeled corners of old buildings. That, plus a familiar brand, is attractive.
I also would like to express my admiration for "real" baristas out there. We button-pushers will look up to you for the rest of our barista-lives and strive to reach that level of passion you invest into your hand-pulled shots, teenie foam bubbles, and decorative leaves. Until we reach your level, we will have to settle with an espresso method that allows us to pay more attention to our customers. >>In seriousness, your espresso does sometimes taste better. :P
Posted by: Dolce | Feb 3, 2008 8:07:22 PM
Frankly, regardless if you're working at some indie shop or Starbucks, you're still making practically nothing, so regardless if Starbucks offers 401ks, etc, I'd imagine you still simply couldn't afford to pay into them in any truly important way.
Regarding the indie shops, yeah, I frequent them, but, I'll tell you this much: they can be just as bad as Starbucks. There's this fantastic one around, but the dude couldn't get his latte art right and remade the drink four times and wasted 15 minutes of my day. It was a to-go drink, at that. Unacceptable, and he wouldn't let me take drink number two when I said I wasn't really interested in having Michaelangelo's "The Creation of Adam" on top of my latte.
Starbucks has its issues, too. I think you can't really compare the two anymore. They compete for a customer's luxury dollar, but in completely different ways.
Also, look at the clientèle in Portland. Have you been to Portland? I know I have, and it's a great city. But... Take a look at the indie-wannabe hipsters who galavant around all day trying to impress the other indie-wannabe hipsters with their wannabe vintage clothing that really comes from American Apparel. (Shh. Don't tell anyone!) They're GOING to drop Starbucks like it was hot and head to the indie shops because that's what the other wannabe hipsters are doing.
Starbucks is the busy man's place. Indie shops are for the people that probably don't have jobs.
Nuff said.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 8:24:22 PM
Gotta love the elitist Indie baristas. Congrats, you make less than we do, you don't get health benefits, you don't get stock options, but hey..You make great latte art, and you get to use a manual machine, that produces a great shot, too bad a large majority of people couldn't care less..Wow, look..It's the Mona Lisa, too bad it took 15 minutes to make, and it tastes practically like a Starbucks latte to me. Like someone said before, Starbucks is catered towards the people who actually have somewhere to be, Indie Shops are for those who live at a coffee shop, and really don't have anything else to do..So, both places have their purpose, and it doesn't make it better than you..And FYI, Barista competitions are the dumbest things I've ever heard..Come on, we are basically glorified bartenders(I don't even use the term barista, I see it as just an elitist title, I'm in the customer service business)
Posted by: BroylingWaterBurns | Feb 3, 2008 10:02:58 PM
Indie shops can be as frustrating as all heck. When you practically feel you need an I.V. of Starbucks caramel sauce, and all there is an indie shop, you're out of luck. My favorite drink would be caramel sauce, 2 shots (shots first), some hot water, whip cream, and more caramel on top. Delicious - it's very difficult to get anything that resembles this from an indie shop.
This thread just makes me love Starbucks more! :D
Posted by: Melody | Feb 3, 2008 10:28:03 PM
that is because your drink is ridiculous, melody. also, in my cafe that'd be a small americano, add caramel add whip. not so hard. not so special. just ridiculous, and unnecessary if you actually like coffee.
and, I get paid more than you, according to what a starbucks employee who frequents my shop told me, and then she quickly followed up with "but we get health benefits",to which I replied- I do to, with no employee contribution- that's right, nothing is taken out of my check. I don't get stock shares, but your stock is tanking, so I will keep the money that you're wasting on SBUX, thanks. and I can take home coffee every week that is actually drinkable.
and, at least in my case, it's less elitism and more pride- I know what I make is a million times better than what someone can get from a starbucks. I don't need to bag on starbucks, my customers do it for me. I provide friendly, polite service, and do my best to provide the customer with what they want. especially when what they want is good coffee.
Posted by: | Feb 3, 2008 11:06:07 PM
Folks,
Starbucks baristas and indie baristas ripping into each other doesn't get anyone anywhere.
We're both about great coffee and giving our customers the best experiences in our shops.
We buy the best coffee we can. We train our baristas the best way we know how and monitor quality and service along the way. If we love the bean we're romancing, we do these things or we can't live with ourselves.
I've had coffee from Starbucks that is amazing--today I had a cup of Brazilian Ipanema Bourbon that was outstanding. I've had coffee from Stumptown that was over roasted--in my opinion--and the same bean from Paradise roasted a bit lighter that was to die for (Both Stumptown and Paradise use a lighter roast than we do at Starbucks). I've had Starbucks Kona with a lot more cereal notes than I expected. In the end, roasting is remains an art.
If you think of coffee like wine you discover a whole spectrum of roasts and flavor profiles that most individual roasters and companies just touch -- including Starbucks. That's ok, Most vineyards don't bottle every kind of wine either. They have their take, their approach as coffee roasters do. And the wine varies year to year along the way.
Loving the bean as a company or shop is only half the task. At some point we all entrust it to the care of individuals to brew and serve. One of my favorite sbux managers teaches all his partners latte art. It's his way of helping them to cherish their part of latte preparation. Another partner likes to compare the tiger-like stripe of a good shot (with the crema, body and heart blending) to a newly poured pint of Guinesss. I love hearing that passion!
This can be a good place for folks to vent, yes. But knocking anyone who loves coffee as much we all do--Starbucks partners and indie employees--just disrespects a bean we both love.
Posted by: 20secondshotguy | Feb 3, 2008 11:28:18 PM
Latte art? I thought I was just seeing the Virgin Mary in my latte. Oh well.
Posted by: BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL | Feb 4, 2008 12:11:25 AM
for the guy that didnt like mcdonalds iced coffee - i first tried it twice when it first came out in my area, and both times it tasted like the milk was spoiled or something. so i didnt get it again until like 2 weeks ago when i wanted to try it again, from a dif store, and it was really good. it tasted like actual iced coffee, not spoiled milk iced coffee. so then i went back to the store where it was bad, and it was much better this time, i dunno if maybe they changed the way they make it or whatever, but it was good. i will say though i think it could use a little more coffee & less milk, but its still good. so id suggest going to a dif mcdonalds in ur area & at least trying it and taking it back if its not good, but i would say that the only reason ud want to get starbucks iced coffee over mcdonalds is just if u work or live right next to starbucks or something like that, or want more control on how much milk & what type of milk you put in. mainly since a venti iced coffee is close to a dollar more for i think a smaller size than mcdonalds large. i have just been getting the regular flavored lately from mcdonalds though, so ill have to see how the vanilla & hazelnut are. the first time when it was terrible i got vanilla so i thought maybe it was the syrup that was not good or something, but i think it was the milk at the time, or how they made it, something! but now it seems to be much better.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 12:55:27 AM
BSR
I have to give you kudos-Forcing us all to time our shots on a regular basis is a great idea! I've never worked at a store that did it enough...I'm going to turn over a new leaf. Even tho I'm the only person in my store that insists it get done-I usually only do it once per shift. Starting tomorrow I'm going to designate a partner each shift to wear a 1 hr timer and time the shots every time it goes off!!!! BACK TO BASICS!!!!!
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 2:06:51 AM
Von brucen, for the record, I make $11 an hour plus tips, which are more than yours, because unlike you, I actually make the drink and my customers reward me for making their latte look nice with a little art by adding more money to the tip jar. Also, I have a 401K, full insurance paid by my company, and stock options? Have you checked your stock lately? Talk about decline.....
Again, you will remain, a button-pusher. No wonder Howie's saying you need to get back to the basics. He's raised up a generation of button-pushing schmucks who don't even take pride in what they do. (And please don't ever kid yourself into thinking your drink will ever taste as good as mine, because you're outta your mind. But bring it to a competition, oh wait. You're scared cause you don't know how to make espresso properly, and they don't have a button-pushing competition. I actually take PRIDE in what I do. You ever heard of it? Oh, I didn't think so....)
Posted by: Not a button pusher | Feb 4, 2008 3:47:17 AM
It makes me laugh when someone from a different coffee shop comes on to a starbucks website to put starbucks down. Why are they here? Jealousy no doubt. Let them hate, we're better than that.
Posted by: Darleen | Feb 4, 2008 4:08:01 AM
Darleen, I am here because it's a free country, and there's this little thing called free speech. That's why. Jealousy, you wish. And again, if you think you make drinks as good as the indies, bring it anytime. You will certainly fail, and run back to Howie. I am sure myself and anyone else in the REAL coffee industry would love to show you what real espresso is. Again, come to any of our shops at anytime and challenge us with your drinks, outside on the street, and prepare to be embarrassed. It's a simple as that. I don't write checks I can't cash, and you shouldn't either.
Posted by: Not a button pusher | Feb 4, 2008 4:15:45 AM
"Not a Button Pusher" is the classic example of the pretenious barista that all movies, TV, etc love to hate. You really are not going to win here, nor have any of your points validated. And yet you continue to respond time and time again. I'm not saying we're better than you, or that you're better than us. It just makes me laugh to imagine how fervently you are responding and how pissed off you sound. Get off your soapbox, dude.
Posted by: SoCalSnowBunny | Feb 4, 2008 7:51:02 AM
There are pluses and minuses to Starbacks and the independent shops, at least where I live. I can't say, in all honesty, that any of the local shops makes a *better* cup of coffee than Starbucks. The prices are a bit lower, the one in particular I frequent roast and grinds it's own beans, and the coffee is ok but it's really about the same as the Starbucks up the street. I do have to say that the folks that work at most of the Starbucks here are considerably friendlier than the indie folks; often they act as if they are bored mindless and are doing me a big favor by pouring me a cup of coffee. I don't expect someone to be my best friend, but you know..a 'thank you' is always kind of nice. But the atmosphere is better for hooking up with friends to spend an hour chatting. So..I go back and forth between the two.
Posted by: Kat | Feb 4, 2008 8:25:54 AM
LEDOG3,
You are so correct. I used to patronize Starbucks a lot–I mean a lot! But it seems that all the stores are so noisy these days, and not always from the customers. Sometimes, it's the Starbucks baristas that seem to enjoy raising the decibel level with their singing and joking amongst one another. I'm all for enjoying your work, but as a customer, I visit (or used to visit) Starbucks to enjoy coffee in a quiet setting while reading or doing homework.
Re: "The formula went into vapor long ago. The idea of a cozy coffee house with a couch and newspaper eventually gave way to a noisy, crowded building that has all the atmosphere of an elementary school cafeteria at lunchtime. The little independents are doing just fine for the most part thank you. [. . .]"
Posted by: Kevin | Feb 4, 2008 8:46:15 AM
I will go to Starbucks when there isn't nothing else around, but I have to say, their coffee isn't any better (its ok, it’s not great). There are pro's and cons about going into any chain as opposed to a mom and pop. I always related to, going to a fine, fresh sea food restaurant on the coast of Maine, or red lobster. The may look the same, and may even taste a little alike, but is ANYONE going to prefer Red Lobster? Well, anyone that knows what good sea food tastes like anyway?
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 9:03:04 AM
False dichotomy. 'Indie' coffee wanks love to paint a world wherein, on the one hand, there's the 'quality' guys (read: indie shops) and on the other hand, there's the 'profit' guys (read: big bad corporate coffee).
I'm not saying it isn't true some times. And I'm not saying that it isn't a contributing factor to Starbuck's current problems.
But here's the reality: Starbucks became highly profitable because of its focus on quality. They are independent of each other, they are by and large codependent on one another.
Moreover, most of the big-bad mainstream chains that we all love to love and love to hate, from Starbucks to the GAP to McDonalds to PF Changs, etc. became huge and powerful (and continue to maintain their predominance) because of a commitment to quality.
It might not be an idiosyncratic, at all costs commitment which these quixotic indies might claim ... but quality has always been an overriding factor. And, truth be told, every business, no mater how large or small, has to make compromises on product quality at some point. It's only a question of at what point and to what extent. Any given business could run itself into the ground if it only focused on achieving the HIGHEST POSSIBLE quality.
Posted by: lb | Feb 4, 2008 9:44:46 AM
I'm going to defend button pusher to an extent. Above, I believe it was Von Brucen that said this about manual machines "and they do produce a better tasting shot and offer more creative options" They draw back; apparently they are too physically taxing on young Von Brucen. Its coffee my friend, you aren't building a bridge, get to the gym for god sake. Also, in that admission, he states the Starbucks did trade in quality for speed and quantity. Anyone that is coming to a coffee shop for GOOD coffee, doesn't mind waiting a few extra minutes for something that will be prepared better, with higher quality. Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee people, sorry to say.
And you are right SoCalSnowBunny, he isn't going to win his points here. To use an example above. It would be like arguing with someone that Red Lobster has the best sea food around, when they are brought to believe that ALL sea food is suppose to taste like Red Lobster. You are right, it’s a loosing argument.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 9:56:51 AM
We shouldn't degrade the employees - it's the customers who need an overhaul. They apparently don't know [or don't care] about quality coffee and should demand it.
Posted by: Sigh | Feb 4, 2008 9:57:22 AM
The person at the indie couldn't make a frappucino since frappucinos are made from a pre-made chemical-laden mix.
They do taste pretty good on a hot day, though.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 10:14:48 AM
"We shouldn't degrade the employees - it's the customers who need an overhaul. They apparently don't know [or don't care] about quality coffee and should demand it." And who's fault is that? Starbucks creates these "customers" they aren't going to go away, they will still flock to Starbucks, becuase Starbucks is thier idea of what a coffee shop is. That is what Starbucks wanted, that is what they are getting. And, how can you demand something, when you don't know what you are demanding? THey don't know what quality coffee is, they will demand what they THINK it is.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 11:26:52 AM
I guess "Not a Button pusher" works on a Lever machine, or else he's a button pusher too!
I worked on the La Marzocco for 6 years and I still had to push a button!!! I worked on a Lever Machine for 2 years and it didnt make as good espresso as the La M.
I now work on The Verismo and have to say that it isn't the machine that makes bad shots...it's mainly the lack of training and maintenance. The auto-steam function on the Verismo is the biggest time-saving benefit ever-anyone remember over steaming a whole large pitcher of milk????
Anyway-lets please get some perspective on this Indie vs Starbucks baristas war!!!
Snobbery is so unattractive!!!!
So, who thinks their store is going to win the iTouchs and the coffee tasting with Howie?????
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 12:49:37 PM
I was i n stumptown in the ace hotel the other day. Everything was more expensive than the bux, even drip coffee. They had the store logo stamped on all the cups because I'm sure pre printed cups would be too corporate (mind you they had custom logos etched into their espresso machines). The staff was slow, inattentive, and appeared to step out of a wes anderson picture. You could tell that the girl was touched buy an uncle, the guy with the 1900's handlebar mustache and doesn't bathe is into porn, but only for the artistry, and the other guy is in a metal band, but not really, they are art metal and are ironic about it.
I hated it there not to mention the pastries looked the same.
Posted by: pdxshifty | Feb 4, 2008 1:44:12 PM
how's everyone doing with the whole bean sales? my store is making a big push, but realizing that it's going to be tough to beat out the larger, busier stores across the nation.
also, and word on smaller rewards for stores that perform well, but don't win?
Posted by: barista lane | Feb 4, 2008 2:07:50 PM
question for chicago area coffee aficionados... what is your take on intelligenstia and argo? i've gotten into arugments with friends who accuse these establishments as "indie poseurs," but i tend to like them for their "pseudo-indie" status. any thoughts?
also, as a customer who appreciates both SBUX and "indies" (and "pseudo-indies"), i must say that i am enjoying this thread from a sort of "fly-on-the-wall" perspective.
Posted by: triple-sec latte | Feb 4, 2008 2:54:49 PM
"Not a button pusher" needs to get a life. Having to resort to "free speech" as his reason for being here, is someone seriously in denial.
Nothing about speech here is free, as I believe someone is paying for the server for your words to be hosted.
So get over your fantasy that the internet is some kind of "free speech" zone. What you're doing is "abusive speech", and I wonder how long the moderator here is going to tolerate you.
Posted by: Gordon | Feb 4, 2008 3:01:18 PM
"And traffic is headed their way, not to Starbucks."
Then why at Starbucks do I have to stand in a long line each morning?
$2.77 Billion in record revenue in their last quarter with 14,000 stores, and people are not going to Starbucks?
The indie shops are better on some drinks here, but like most industries when comparing independents quality (product and service) varies greatly from one to the other, and the quality one's here charge more than Starbucks. You pay for what you get!
And Starbucks is the not the Macdonald's of the coffee industry, it's Macdonald's. Madonald's coffee is horrible!
Word of advice. If you don't like Starbucks, then don't drink their coffee!
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 3:24:36 PM
Your best bet is to ignore comments that you find abusive. Don't bait him.
Posted by: Jim Romenesko | Feb 4, 2008 3:24:58 PM
I used to love starbucks until I started working there. $7.98 an hour isn't enough pay to deal with all I had to deal with. I'm not talking about customers I'm talking about my bitchy manager who thought treating me like an insolent 3 year old and discriminating against me becuase of a medical conition was okay. I'll miss all my regualar customers but I won't miss getting yelled at several times a day by a frustrated closeted lesbian.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 3:45:20 PM
Starbucks is a great starting off place to introduce people to better quality coffees. People go to smaller coffee shops when they are ready to expand their coffee experience. Or want espresso drinks that feature espresso, not sugary syrups. Starbucks is definitely not my sotres competition.
Posted by: justsayno | Feb 4, 2008 4:19:58 PM
Before starbucks, you went to dennys or some other local food joint for coffee. Local crappy doughnut place. You didn't go to "its coffee grind bla bla bla" shiek coffee hut, because there werent any. There was no espresso culture, really, not like we have today.
Fact of the matter is, all these small coffee shops are only around because starbucks made coffee into a high paying industry.
I am not saying starbucks invented coffee shops I am just saying theres so many more now a days because of starbucks.
So, yeah, you're welcome.
Posted by: Zipy | Feb 4, 2008 4:23:02 PM
^ I've said this before, and I will keep saying it. You are right, Starbucks may not have created this culture, but they made it main stream. That being said, I think they are becoming a victim of the same culture they helped cultivate. They introduced the country to "quality" coffee. Made be realize there is more to coffee then Folgers, Denny's, or Circle K. Now that people out there are aware there is some great coffee to be had, they are coming to the realization that Starbucks is not the best. It’s pretty good, but it’s not great, and is seeking out coffee elsewhere.
Posted by: | Feb 4, 2008 4:56:23 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care about competitions.
What i care about is a cup of coffee, or a mocha, latte, or cappuccino that taste good to me, at a reasonable price, delivered in a reasonable amount of time.
I don't care about "latte art". it does little change the taste of the beverage.
I've had great espresso from manual and semi-automatic machines, and lousy espresso from those same machines.
I know that I can get a consistent drink at Starbucks. You may not like it, but it is my taste buds that I'm concerned with.
Whan I'm behind the bar, I do my best to give my customers the best beverage I can make. On any given day, I'll probably remake 5-6 drinks because I'm not satisfied with them, and I wouldn't give a customer something I wouldn't drink myself.
(well, except for a green tea latte or anything with peppermint, but that's neither here nor there.)
I work for Starbucks because I want to. I like my manager, my co-workers, and my customers. And, as I've stated, I do support independent coffee shops also - but if I get attitude from behind the bar,I'm an ex-customer.
And frankly, the absolute best cup of coffee I ever had was probably little more than warm brown water, but I'd just finished a 12 hour shift digging through the wreckage of the World Trade Center, looking for human remains.
It's all in your perspective.
Posted by: sbuxnewbie | Feb 4, 2008 5:31:40 PM
Starbucks would have lost business and would have turned off more customers by not switching to the automatic machines. The demand and traffic at most starbucks stores makes manual machines obsolete. Most independent cafes don't suffer from the strain of high volume traffic, due to low brand recognition, inconsistent standards & quality, and innefficient deployment/operations/customer service, making automatic machines unnecessary. Generally when someone brags and blows hot air to the extent of "Not a Button Pusher", they are overcompensating for some inadequacy that also drives them to feel the need to prove to the world how much better they are than everyone else, which reveals their own debilitating insecurities in the process. Brings to mind the great words of the wise and knowledgeable Mr. T when he said "I pity the fool."
Posted by: Von Brucen | Feb 4, 2008 9:31:01 PM
at the end of the day it's all the same... just coffee... and it all ends up in the same place... the 4th place (i.e. the toilet)... which then goes into the ocean and ends up eventually watering more coffee trees... so that beans can be grown and roasted that more folks may bitch about who's coffee/company is better...
the cycle of life folks... just sayin'
Posted by: Pat Nerr | Feb 5, 2008 4:41:33 AM
And again, if you think you make drinks as good as the indies, bring it anytime. You will certainly fail, and run back to Howie. I am sure myself and anyone else in the REAL coffee industry would love to show you what real espresso is. Again, come to any of our shops at anytime and challenge us with your drinks, outside on the street, and prepare to be embarrassed
I'm sure any one of my drinks can go up against yours. Even with an automated machine. You conveniently left out the name of the coffee shop you work at, how can I respond to your request? My drinks taste like heaven in a cup, how's that for modesty? LOL. I'd take you on in a millisecond. Just because we aren't indie does not for one second mean we can't make an awesome drink. Get over yourself dude.
Posted by: Darleen | Feb 5, 2008 5:40:44 AM
You know...the funny thing...when you LOOK for a coffee shop job...even at and INDIE coffee shop...they always favor the applicants who have previous barista experience...FROM STARBUCKS. Go ahead. Go look in the paper or Craigslist. It'll say something along the lines of "starbucks barista experience preferred." I dare ya.
Posted by: | Feb 5, 2008 1:46:49 PM
The truth of the matter is that these little Mom and Pop Coffee stands offer Espresso equally and often times far better then Starbucks. When I can go to my favorite "Bob's On Broadway" and order the exact same drinks for almost $2.00 less and they are superior to Starbucks, that's where my money will be spent. The drinks are consistant in quality, where Starbucks you never know if you drink will be bitter, watery or too hot to hold. I honestly will say that I have stopped the Starbucks visist's because of the in-consistent quality of the Barista making the drink.
Even Starbucks wants to stand out from the crowd, they really need to think about rebranding themselves and think about what made them successful in the 1rst. place.
Posted by: Evil_Gene | Feb 6, 2008 7:33:15 PM
as a manager of an indie, I avoid hiring people with barista experience, especially starbucks, because there's so much retraining involved. peets maybe.
former starbucks employees have great customer service, but we have to totally retool their coffee knowledge. it's way easier to hire someone who knows nothing but has a passion for coffee and a good attitude, so we can teach them the correct techniques and knowledge from the get go. it's HARD to break the bad habits that former baristas come with. it took me a solid year to unlearn the "skills" I learned from peets.
Posted by: | Feb 6, 2008 10:00:01 PM
I would hope you don't discriminate against ALL former Baristas.
As, personally, I would LOVE to use a manual bar and learn more about coffee. And all baristas aren't bad...just the ones who think it's a "McJob"
Posted by: Adrienne | Feb 6, 2008 10:16:40 PM
it's not that I think that all former baristas are "bad". it's that they have ingrained habits that it's hard to retrain, and many times they have attitudes when they are told that they know very little about coffee.
even working at peets, I had NO idea how much more there was to learn about the specialty coffee world- corporate coffee intentionally walls you off from the larger coffee world and tells you that their way is the only way, feeds you misinformation, and gives you a falsely superior attitude. at peets I was told that we were far superior to anything else out there, which I know now is patently false.
I have hired former baristas, and there's a chance I will again. but it's not a high chance.
Posted by: | Feb 6, 2008 10:25:52 PM
howie and company seem to be so worreied about being perceived as "fast foodish". why? that is the starbucks niche market. they should be embracing and exploiting that. the company can never be like a little indy coffee house, stop trying. its like trying to create a backyard grill barbeque at mcdonalds. its not that, yet mcDs is huge because fast food style burger meals fits a market need. stop howard. bring back the food, accept it is fast food now and will always be. but its ok.
Posted by: anon | Feb 7, 2008 12:12:27 AM
I was in an indie shop a few weeks back and asked about a bean they were selling - out of pure interest. I liked the cup I was drinking and wanted to know what it was.
The barista had to ask one person, who asked another person, who asked another person before the first person took a guess.
The shop has a great local rep and participates at SCAA conferences, barista championships, etc.
No one knew. I laughed to myself and realized that in the end, it all comes down to the people and the service they provide. That looks a little different shop to shop. Recipes are different, as is our approach to individual bean.
I've been to the barista championships. And Starbucks partners in different markets have had similar events for years with both espresso and blended beverages. They're just like them--so don't let that talk intimidate at any level.
As I said before. Our responsibility is to respect the bean ~ regardless of which cafe we work for ~ and realize that most, if not all of us in every shop are trying to do the same.
Posted by: 20secondshotguy | Feb 9, 2008 2:16:22 PM
I'm a big fan of small(er) chains like Stumptown, Ladro and Peets. A Starbucks Americano or espresso just can't compare to any of those stores. If you want a shot or two of coffee in a big monster cup of milk, sure it's probably not going to be as easy to taste the difference.
And I'm no hippie, I'm a corporate tech-dork who just appreciates good coffee.
Posted by: coffeefan | Feb 11, 2008 9:53:39 PM
I've always been an oficinado of independent businesses in general, so having a bias for a coffee shop ("the little guy") that is competing with a chain of coffee shops would hardly seem to be a radical idea.
It is unfortunate that independent does not always mean better or innovation. People are so embroiled in the David versus Goliath that they have forgotten to look deeper into what it could all be about.
I managed a coffee house that featured a liberal dose of free local entertainment and arts.. in fact it was probably one of the most exciting places to go in town. We broke a lot of items into the trade as well. We were, for example, one of the first places to offer yogurts to our customers, if you could imagine a time when no one knew what yogurt was in the states.
To give some perspective here, it seems that on a local level in Kansas City one can not really say that a competition between yuppie capuchinos is much of what I would call an earth breaking revolutionary kind of event. It is frankly, quite boring.
I talked with some people at a Starbucks here that was closing. They were most upset because they felt that their 'family' was being broken up. Is it possible that for once someone had defined one of the key magic elements that when there is nothing much to boast of in product diferentiation is elemental to any business being a cut above the rest?
Ironically the independent local coffee houses mostly seem to have abandoned any attempts to offer anything innovative or unique and they have also become bastions for drug dealers who like to dominate and intimidate the local populace at large. Unlike bars you don't have to be 18 to get in either. Of course there is nothing much to stop Starbucks outlets from becoming nothing much more than this themselves. And any business can be used to launder money illegally obtained. The old time hippies like to continue to pretend that they are alternative types but let's face it, they are nothing more than the creepy mafia types that they have come to defend with their old sixties facades, long worn away.
People should look deeper into what defines the quality of life instead of being distracted by sterotypical details. While I will always be one (it's quite American you know) to fight for the little guy, I'd say if you are going to spend time arguing over independent versus corporate one should take a good hard luck at what is coming with each. Some coffee shops go the extra mile to really add something exciting to their communities. You can simply stuff your face at home or many other ways and that's hardly much of a revolutionary event. What difference is it going to make if people are meeting to plug their heads into the internet void or simply meeting to gossip or lie about their neighbors if it is accompanied by a frappuchino at Starbucks or Organies' Bean Shop? Both places provide jobs, neither guarantee much in benefits, and it is today the rarer of events if the customers even notice or care if something better happens to their brains as they pass through the doors, other than some chemical enlightenment. Obviously no amount of caffeine is going to be enough to wake people up to see that just having another place to stuff things into their mouth is a subject worth arguing over.
I remember hours, late nights languished watching and talking with musicians and artists who spent their time in coffee houses where the content was the central detail, and the coffee was the whip cream to fuel the engine.
Posted by: Dean | Feb 14, 2008 2:20:58 AM
Here is a good site to find independent coffee shops around: cafehunt.com
Posted by: Mike | Feb 19, 2008 6:49:18 AM
"...caffeine-fueled lifestyle of sitting around and bitching: liberals and Europeans." the second is more true. I'd say with independent coffee shops, it is more about the culture and improved life style than the caffeine. Of course many of them suck, but the good ones will inspire a new generation of places for a yet improved lifestyle. It reminds me the difference between the difference between a Microsoft driven computing world, and one derived by creatives commons / opensource developpers. The second must succeed for us to take the civilization forward.
Read the 'About Us' section for this site http://www.cafehunt.com . It lists independent coffee shops around.
Posted by: Mike | Feb 20, 2008 1:42:17 PM
I work at Sbux, however I totally support the independent thing, but there are definitely a few things that bother me--
1. Indie places always want to be different or better than Starbucks, yet whenever I go into one, there is always some drink that is basically a rip-off of a drink that Starbucks came up with (i.e. there is always a drink similar in name to Caramel Macchiato or Frappuccino, both Starbucks innovations). If you're going to be all arrogant about being indie, then don't ride Starbucks' coattails.
2. I, like many others have stated, wish that our espresso quality was better, (by the way, it is better now thanks to some Verissimo updates) but it is a lot more important for most customers to get in and out fast than it is for their Venti 7-pump white mocha to have higher-quality espresso that they can't even taste. There are a few customers that we know can tell the difference and they expect quality shots and foam, and I always do my best to make it the exactly the way that they like it.
3. For the indie baristas that are here on this board and care about your job, thank you. I really do appreciate the indies that take pride in their job and know that one of the best ways to edge out Starbucks is through higher-quality espresso/lattes. However, you are the exception to the rule, in my expreience. The truth is, at $7/hour for part-time people it is very difficult to find good help, and I share the exprience of many others here who have received poor quality service at an indie by a 17 year old girl who really just doesn't care. I'm sorry that's just the way it is.
Posted by: Adam | Feb 20, 2008 11:53:58 PM
