From the mailbag: Are lattes supposed to be lukewarm?

Lisa S. writes to STARBUCKS GOSSIP: Yesterday I had the unique experience of having a Starbucks latte in two different stores in two different states -- one in the Atlanta airport and the other in a store in Austin, TX. I hadn't had a latte since Christmas last year and was craving a Gingerbread one. Both of the ones I got were barely warm. Is that how it's supposed to be? (Your webmaster only has drip coffee, so he wouldn't know.) I would have went back to ask, but at the Atlanta one I had to catch my flight, and at the Austin one I got it to go. Doh! Hope you can post this on your blog so I can find out the truth!

Okay, folks, what's the truth?

Comments

[Sheik]

1. Airport stores aren't real stores... they are FAKE. They are staffed with airport employees that "proudly serve Starbucks products." So chances are the employees behind the counter weren't properly trained.

2. The milk was old and the barista/employee didn't re-steam it.

3. The temperature control on the "Auto steam" function on the Verismo was inaccurate.

FYI: Whipped Cream will drop the temperature a bit.

Anyone know how to adjust the temperature control on the Verismo so that the "Auto Steam" function will steam higher?

I hate getting lukewarm lattes, even in the regular non-licensed stores I have had baristas serve steamed milk that has dropped well below the 150-170 degrees.

[lisa]

I did have whipped cream -- but the latte was colder than you'd expect from that. Sigh.

Thanks for the info tho!

[Florida Barista]

Ask for it extra hot!! I always do. I'd rather wait a few minutes for it to cool down than drink a 140 degree lukewarm latte- gross!

The nice thing about the company operated Starbucks is that they always replace a drink for me if I don't enjoy it - and then ask if it's okay. I wonder if the licensed and joint-venture Starbucks are as accomodating?

[8ozBarista]

I know that the airport stores are not part of our corporation but you would think that even though they weren't properly trained, that if they are being allowed to serve food & beverages (especially dairy ones) that they would have some form of training. I don't know what the temperature of that drink was but these "employees" should be taught about the danger zone in which bacteria grows! Anyway, my only advice to you is to ask for your drink extra hot or ask for a particular temp. next time (people do that at my store all the time).

[JR]

That's a big reason I seldom get lattes. It's just too frustrating to get a luke warm drink and have to take it back. I don't want extra hot, just the proper temperature! When it's $3.00, it ought to be right.

My most frequent drink is a cafe mocha and I will often ask for it "extra hot" because by the time the syrup, espresso, and whipped cream are added to the (likely) 150 degree steamed milk, it's just not that hot.

[soy_latte]

Licensed Store employees should be getting the same bar training that they do at company-owned stores. Unfortunately, just like at regular stores, there are times when the training isn't up to snuff.

Licensed Stores should also be accomodating in replacing drinks if they're not to you're liking. And if they don't, I'd contact Starbucks and find out who their DM is and let them know.

[JavaJen]

I only wish that the baristas at the licensed store I frequent would be so kind as to remake a drink, let alone ask if it's ok. I generally order a venti americano with 2" of room. Why? Because that's the taste I crave. When they leave me with a 1/2" of room, no room or a slight 1-1/2" of room, it's not the same--and it's not what I ordered. Most times, if I say something, they DUMP out the extra and don't remake it. How much more specific can you be than ordering "a venti americano with 2" of room." Maybe I'm the fool and should be ordering it some fancy-schmancy way in which I've yet to be enlightened.

[BaristaBess]

You absolutely shouldn't have had to drink a luke warm latte. There's about a dozen reasons I can think of that you may have gotten one, and none of them meet our standards of practice. Apologies, and I do hope that you come back to see us again wherever you may be traveling.

JavaJen, There's nothing wrong with asking for 2 inches of room, but we don't exactly have rulers on the bar to measure it out and not everyone is able to visually gauge what 2" looks like in a cup.

[JustABarista]

With a lot of drinks (especially a peppermint mocha/peppermint hot chocolate) there is a LOT of syrup added to the cup. Even a grande flavored latte has four pumps of syrup (room temperature) and that will drop the temp FAST. Also, I think people also tend to order a latte, let it sit on the bar for a couple minutes, pick it up, head outside in to the cold, walk to their office, get to their desk, and then take a sip of it and proclaim "this is luke warm!". I experienced it today, got my partner bev and went outside in the 19 degree cold and it tasted cooler to me. I went in and took the temp on it and it was 155. I think most starbucks customers also may just be used to burnt milk, a lot of them order it extra hot (which, if you go above standard it tastes burnt, around 140 is best for milk flavor, IMHO).

[Lauren]

Sheik

This is from Duke (the sweet sweet man who stole my Marzocco) and trained me on the Verissimo. To calibrate your steam wands: Remove the steaming tip, fill a large pitcher with ice, steam until it stops (on auto) -- this IS loud. Repeat so that you steam a total of three large pitchers of ice.

And voila!

There are a few reasons why the drink would be below temperature, I'm sorry that it was that way -- please walk into your next Starbucks and tell them! Even if it's hundreds of miles away, they should give you a free one.

Sorry about all the crazy.

[Sheik]

No No No No... I mean is there a way to lift the top of the Verismo (when we clean it inside and "seal off" the valves of Decaf and Reg espresso) and adjust the temp THERE? We can adjust the grind there, too.

i never make a drink under 165! because it takes a while to drink a venti if you are enjoying it and i assume everyone sips like i do, so i train my partners to never do less than 165. yum

[Camille]

Don't hate the licensed store employees! We are totally well-trained, have totally high standards and are very accomodating when someone's drink is made wrong, or not to their liking. Feel the love!

[baristatarian]

camille- its not that we are attacking you or your licensed store but overall the onslaught of complaints about licensed concept stores are overwhelming. so much so that it has become a stereotype of the whole thing. a stereotype is what is because enough people out there are proving right

[Sheik]

And the main reason us *real* barista's don't like licensed concept stores?

Hell-ooooo, we can't get our 30% off!!!!!

[Lauren]

Sheik

In short, no. It is auto set, and its computerized system knows (if you have the tip off!) how to calibrate. Or you could call your service tech and cost your store a couple hundred dollars...

[barockstar]

the only way to do it is by calling your service techs, like lauren said.
and there's no way you'll get them to set it higher than standard...
(how quickly you forget the hot chocolate law suit.. :) )

for lori: totally go into your next starbucks and let them know what happened, they should be accommodating...always ask for your latte @ 155, or ask for fresh steamed milk. the latter is a little pretentious, but totally do able. the former will make sure we do it the right way the first time..

[barockstar]

(oops, i meant lisa)

Ask for a wet Capuccino, that way if the barista is up to par they will know to steam fresh milk, which is more likely to be warmer

[Scorpio370]

For the person who asks for 2" of room, you can also ask for a grande but in a venti cup. Most people know how to do that and it gives you plenty of room, if I'm not mistaken, should give you plenty of room.

For Lisa, I have to echo the others, go into a store, explain what happened, and they should automatically offer the remake for free. That is what I do and train all my partners to do. The liscensed stored aren't worse, I go into a couple around where I live and they act just like I was walking into a corporate owned one.

I hope your future experiences are up to standards next time you go in. :)

[newbarista]

I think the main issue with people getting luke warm would be temperature gadges we use in the milk pitchers. They need to be adjusted one or two times a day, as they are crappy. I'll admit, I gave someone a luke warm latte during a rush because my temperature gadge was off - said 160, was more or less 140 me thinks.

[Sheik]

The thermometers we use on pitchers are practically useless considering we have an "Auto Steam" feature. It will steam it to standard regardless of what the thermometer says.

[newbarista]

Well, if you're up to standards, you'd know that we need those thermometers to know kids temp drinks (no auto temp for that), as well as making sure the milk doesnt go below 120, extra hot is extra hot...and milk that was steamed 3 mins ago is still in the serving temperature range.

[Superbarista]

Bad drink = Bad barista on bar. :( Things like that depress me, especially because of the reasons causing that 'badness'

[OMG Barista Boi]

I know nothing of how the training in licensed stores compares to the training I received, so I won't speculate on that. I do know, however, that I have personally heard more complaints about licensed stores as compared to normal stores. But even then, just because a barista has all the proper training doesn't mean they will follow it 100%. I've seen corner-cutting firsthand with certain co-workers of mine. I do my best to be educated on all standards, procedures, and recipes...and pass that knowledge on to fellow baristas. Sites such as this one are great for this purpose. :)

[jabanga]

i only used a verissimo for a few weeks before leaving the company and i found that i always needed to give the milk a quick blast on manual after using auto to get the milk toward the middle to high end of standard. definitely drinks with syrup and whip should always be made that way. shiek you do still need the thermometers to know exactly what your milk is at and how far it has dropped, whether you need to re-steam it or dump it out.

[Boston Starbucks Rebel]

I don't believe in resteaming the milk. I believe it is always better to steam fresh milk for all drinks. Yes, I do hit the drink from auto-to-manual in order to get it 170 exactly. Lukewarm lattes are gross. However, I believe the standard for a latte is above 135 if you check the Snapshot drink standards.

[coffeeguy]

I think the problem is really very very simple.

Everyone has a different deffinition of warm and hot.

I tend to steam all my milk to the 160-165 range and I calibrate my shots and thermometers pretty often. Proper Calibration is the biggest key.

It's also fun when a customer asks why I'm timing the shots on their americano. :P

[BaristaBen]

The Starbucks store i work at is very busy...sometimes when we become really swamped with customers, we get more concerned about just handing the drinks off in a quick manner than making sure they are all made to standard...unfortunately. It is too bad.

And then, there are certain partners i work with at the bar who do not handle the "stress of the rush" very well. So, if customers come back and want their drink made differnetly, the partner responds in a irritated, rude manner.

That bothers me and I apologize to all of you out there. As a customer, you have the right to tailor your drink to your preference, and since you typically pay over $3 for any drink, we should be expected to make it to your preferences. Don't back down...but make sure you get what you ordered...it is your right!

[Becca]

This is interesting, because lately I've had a lot of customers specifically request 140 degree lattes, maybe once it starts to cool down outside the x-hot drinks will come back.

[Boston Starbucks Rebel]

Ummmmmmmm, yeah the mission statement and guiding principles is what has let Starbucks grow one cup at a time, by making that human connection and actually caring about making sure each person gets the best cup of coffee possible. They wait in line pay money in exchange for a Starbucks beverage. Don't you get it?
People wait in line for quality. If you make a good drink they will come back again and again.
I think there's some Starbucks line about, "Creating an uplifting experience that enriches peoples live."
FIRST, latte, LAST, latte, ONLY latte.

[Boston Starbucks Rebel]

BEST LATTE!

[mkebarista]

Licensed Stores were a mistake and are a stupid idea

[Florida Barista]

I have a customer that comes in everyday and gets his latte at 120 degrees. On Some days, godforbid the lattes gets to 130 with shots and everything) he freaks out and thinks its too hott! DISGUSTING.

To Venti Americano!

GEEZ! In a rush what do you want us to do?? Pull out a ruler and measure to exact 2"???????

If it is 1 2/3 GET OVER IT!

Its not the end of the world-- its just coffee.

[Boston Starbucks Rebel]

Hello. Its a quad grande americano in a venti cup. Also, aren't you realizing that you are getting it from a Verismo so it totally sucks!

[daveid]

having managed a licensed concept store before coming into management in retail stores i have a bit of insight. I heard all the ragging from the retail baristas when i worked the LC stores.
i think that a lot of the problems the LC stores have are dumped onto the employees instead of onto starbucks. now lets get it straight that i do love starbucks and everything is stands for. but i also realize noone is perfect and that there are things that can change.
in the last 8 months i worked for the LC store i had a DM for 1 of those months. that DM is the person who is supposed to be checking up on the stores and making sure they are following company policy.

also, the packets of information that LC stores get in arent always as full as the ones retail stores get. some times i would get all new product for a new drink and never get a recipe card in. GREAT.

a lot of it falls on the company that owns the licensed store. mine was in Safeway grocery stores. the store had a strict theft policy that meant i couldnt even sample out the drinks to the new employees so they would know what they are serving. we couldnt have them make drinks to learn unless someone bought it. and we couldnt mark out coffee for frenchpresses.

of course i did this behind their backs still but im sure many other LC store managers might not have been so brasen with their safeway store manager.

theres a lot to understand about these LC stores.

the airports and thruway LC stores especially. they will take employees from any other stand and plug them into a starbucks for a day just to fill a spot. i found this out on a recent road trip when i stopped in to a starbucks.

"Don't hate the licensed store employees! We are totally well-trained, have totally high standards and are very accomodating when someone's drink is made wrong, or not to their liking. Feel the love!"

SO Camille....why is it that any licensed store you go to, you will be greeted by the sound of improperly aerated milk SCREAMING? Why cant licensed peeps get milk steaming down. I swear to god every time i go to Barnes & Noble I twitch when i hear that milk screeching like nails on a chalkboard....I just wanna jump behind the bar and bring the tip out and get some air in there. Rule of Thumb: If you can Hear the milk steaming, then you're scorching it.

[licensedstoremanager]

I post regularly on here. I am a licensed store manager. I have worked hard to run a licensed store that is as good as any company operated. Our sales, legendary service and basic scores suggest that we are able to do this. In training a new (or our equivalent of) ASM, we visited several local stores to do a snapshot. Half of the ones we visited were company operated, the other half were licensed stores. We could not score a company operated store higher than a 3. Most of the company operated stores were dirty. In one case, the manager of the store (who I know by sight and because she's borrowed supplies from me) failed to wipe a *very* dirty condiment bar prior to leaving for the day. That said, I know that there are fabulous company operated stores out there. We used to have a local one that was but the manager left to manage a larger, busier location in a big city.

As far as training, all of my baristas go through In-Store Training. Learning coaches go through one unit of the Advanced Store Training manual. My full-time baristas do Advanced Store Training. Store managers in my corporation must complete Advanced Store Training. We have a district manager we report to. We perform Store Performance Overviews. Our license fee every year is determined by the scores our store earns. The lower the score, I am told from my corporate contact at my store, the higher the fee.

That said, a licensed store manager makes, in most occassions, significantly less than a company operated store. The average Starbucks manager in my retail company is $22k. There is no profit sharing, though other benefits are not horrible. I have the same responsibilities, with the exception of having to lock a door and worry about cash. I am hourly and if the company says I cannot work beyond my 40 hours, I cannot work without serious reprucussions. In most licensed locations for my company, there is one single manager with no additional assistant managers or anyone above a regular barista. I can offer no more than a $.55 raise. And when prices go up to support partners, my baristas do not get a raise. No matter the experience level my baristas start at $7.75/hr.

Unlike corporate locations, I cannot get hours for non-service work, it must come out of the hours I am allocated per week. And sometimes, my hours are cut to provide another area of the store with more hours. I do not get training or new drink hours once my baristas are out of their first two weeks. That means drink training has to happen while we are making regular drinks.

We also attempt to follow Starbucks procedures, including things like positions. However, the manuals/procedures were developed for company operated stores. So even though I am doing as many drinks as a few of the company operated stores, I work with one espresso machine and I have only one register. This means that I should have 5 to 6 people during busy times I do not have the equipment to do that. I also have significantly less storage space and get shipments only once a week. I have 3 four foot shelves that are apprxoimately 6 feet tall plus 2 four foot cooler shelves. I also only have two under-counter fridge (I'd guess they are about 2.5 feet wide and 2 feet deep, which means I can hold 6 whole/6 skim gallons in one and 6 pitchers plus whipped creams, one set of condiment bar milk pitchers, and the boxed liquids). We also don't order pastry through a reliable company (but that's who our chain contracts through). I also can hold 8 different pastries in my case at once. So sometimes when my machine is down I can't serve espresso. And sometimes I have to make decisions about products or pastry based on space and popularity. So when I run out of Apple Cider because I can only handle four cases of Apple Cider a week, there's nothing I can do but apologize for being out. The Apple Cider is probably the 15th most popular drink. And technically, licensed locations are not supposed to serve decaf frappuccino (which is a rule we break during the summer) and so when we are yelled out for not having it during 30 degree cold spells in December, all I can do is apologize because our customers expect everything they can get at a company operated store has.

That said, I have a great DM, a great store manager and I fight for my area and will try my best to make sure that all of my employees get fabulous training and know how to provide 'legendary' customer service.

I actually have several partners that come in every day for coffee on their way to work. Of those, many have said that they didn't believe licensed stores were a good idea until they came to ours.

If you have questions about licensed stores, I'd be happy to answer. I've been in position for several years now and work with several locations to help train when new managers are put into position.

[Boston Starbucks Rebel]

Only 22K a year? Wow, thats really bad! I know some shift supervisors who make more than that. Granted that I live in Boston and 22K will barely get you even a decent apartment. I know that most real Starbucks managers make about 42K in the Boston area which is pretty good. I still don't trust any Starbucks except my own because who knows how dirty their milk pitchers are and if they are following all the health codes. In the end, you don't so I always recommend extreme caution. Get americanos, only an island that is missing its idiot could mess that up.

[JW]

I just went to the Starbucks in Barnes and Noble's in Fenton, Missouri. They didn't serve their Peppermint Mocha hot like the actual Starbucks store down the road.

Barnes and Nobles is not a Starbucks location (licensed or corporate), they are their own thing that 'proudly brews coffee'.

I know the person responsible for training licensed store employees in Missouri (well, one of them). Say what you will, the training is lacking. My friend specifically told me that they are not allowed to touch the machines at a licensed store. Meaning, when a barista is doing something wrong, they can coach but cannot demonstrate, at least not without breaking rules. She also said that the corporate training occurs while the store is opening only. So if a licensed store is doing something wrong, it will perpetuate as they train new staff.

It's not the same. It's not it's not it's not. There are limitations to what a licensed store can do.

That said, here's a tip for all regarding frappucinos: My store has a frap dispensing machine. Yesterday, I was changing it over for the PM shift. There was black ick in the mechanism. Black not being a color I associate with frap mix, and being the kind of person I am, I got a screwdriver and pulled the thing apart.

Black ick was sporing mold. Yep, mold. The frap dispenser hadn't been cleaned. Yes, our fault but we had been given this machine when the store opened recently and no one realized how often the thing had to be taken apart and cleaned. It's clean now but I will NEVER order a frap from a store that uses a dispenser. At least the pitchers are day dotted and thoroughly washed. As for my store, I assure you, I will be pulling that thing apart once a week. Esp now that I know how to do it.

[barista lane]

you can say the same thing about anything in the store though. who is to say all steam wands are cleaned properly on a regular basis? how do you know the pitchers are day dotted correctly and thoroughly washed? the dispenser is not a problem as long as it is cleaned regularly. as in daily.

[coffeeho]

I like to actually *drink* a latte when I buy one, rather than take off the lid and let it cool for 15 minutes (literally). I think Starbucks lattes are absurdly overhot (which is why they taste so burned. It kills the nutrients in the milk, too.) I don't drink them at work unless I've made it myself, and when I visit other stores I usually have to pour out a third and refill with milk from the pitchers (or get it in a larger cup so there's room to add milk to make it drinkable.)

[IMHO]

No, lattes aren't supposed to be lukewarm... but they're not supposed to be hot enough to burn you either. Sure there's coffee in it, but it's not coffee (ie drip coffee) so it's not going to be 190 degrees. Sadly there are people who want 190 degree lattes.

The autosteam function is set to work lower than most baristas would like. Why? If you're only steaming a tall's worth of milk, it's going to heat a lot quicker than a large pitcher filled to capacity. The feedback mechanism the machine uses takes time to respond to the increasing temp. If it was set to make 170 degree milk in a large pitcher, you'd scald every small pitcher you'd try to steam on auto.

The idea is to make every drink with freshly steamed milk, which means bumping up the temp with the manual button everytime you steam a large pitcher.

2 tips:

Keep the thermometers out of the dip well. They're not meant to get wet for long (notice no rubber seal where the calibration nut is). This will throw off their calibration.

On drinks that get whip, use XH milk and put a small layer of foam on top before adding the whip. This will insulate the drink and keep it within serving range longer.

And for the baristas serving customers like JavaJen:

You can always add more water to an americano but you can't take it away. Fill it below where you think they want it and ask if it's ok or if they want more water.

Same trick for dry cappuccinos... you can always make it wetter by adding milk. Before you fill the cup all the way, get the customers to heft the cup and ask if they'd like more milk or more foam. Sure that last bit won't be free poured, but since they're gonna dump a ton of chocolate and cinnamon on top and stir it all in, it's not gonna matter...

As the barista, you have the skill and brain to handcraft perfect beverages. It is up to you to use the tools you're given (thermometers, autosteam function...).

If you expect the machine to do the thinking (must steam milk to 170 on auto...) then you're saying that you're happy being a monkey pushing buttons on a machine (machine not right therefore recalibrate machine) rather than a barista (milk still not hot enough, continue steaming on manual).

[derby]

No! Not lukewarm! Never. Ever.