In Portland, independent coffee shops thrive while Starbucks sputters

Starbucks fans will call this columnist just another Starbucks-basher, but he make some good observations. Among them:

There is a moment in the history of every business enterprise where the commitment shifts from quality to profit, and Starbucks had its moment years ago.

Growth changed Starbucks' priorities. It now banks on the notion that customers will settle for less than the best if it's reasonably cheap, consistent, and brewed -- by automated machines, of course -- on every street corner.

He says when you walk into Coffee Plant and Stumptown -- two Portland independent shops -- "there is a different vibe, a far more personal approach to coffee, and a window into why Starbucks has grown so stale in our little corner of the world."

The fact is, this is happening in cities across the country -- coffee-loving entrepreneurs are opening up shops that are dedicated to customers, and not Wall Street. And traffic is headed their way, not to Starbucks. (Read the Portland Oregonian story)

Comments

great article and totally true. Starbucks is just another brand, and like mc donalds, you know what you're getting and why you're going there, and it's not for quality.

[SEADAVE]

Makes me wonder what "Howie" thinks he can do to fix Starbucks' image. Even if he made his Portland shops' product, experience, etc. just like these independent shops people will still refuse to go just because it's Starbucks.

There comes a point when a brand loses its cachet and I'm not sure you can turn the clock back once that happens.

I fear that Jim Donald recognized this and took Starbucks down the path he did knowing that there is no going back to the "good old days". No longer the hip coffee shop but certainly the 800-pound gorilla in the marketplace and so how do you leverage that?

Maybe true, but it says something that we are taking a risk and trying even if it is a lost cause... the word "noble" comes to mind... let's at least go down in this sinking ship with our heads high and with some integrity! It's the stuff Legends are made of...

[shebrews]

It's the syndication theory....talk to Bill Watterson about his ideas of that. No more Calvin and Hobbes because he knew syndication would kill his idea of what he wanted...this is exactly right----watered-down and no longer special

[ledog3]

The formula went into vapor long ago. The idea of a cozy coffee house with a couch and newspaper eventually gave way to a noisy, crowded building that has all the atmosphere of an elementary school cafeteria at lunchtime. The little independents are doing just fine for the most part thank you. In one small town very near here, there are five independent stands.The first SBX shows up 4 years ago and they're all still around doing just fine. Same owners. Goliath is looking tired.

As I've said before, each different coffee shop has it's special features and it's pros and cons. I love Starbucks. That's why I work there. I will always love Starbucks. The quality of coffee is apparent in the whole bean coffee we sell. ...have you tried a coffee press sample of Starbucks coffee versus another coffee brand french pressed? It's amazing the difference. But I ALSO love the independent coffee shops. They are perfect when I'm in the mood to sit and read or write poetry or even just people watch. The coffee shop I go to depends on my mood at the time. Which is why Starbucks will never die and also why the independent coffee shop will never die. There IS a place for both in this world, which many don't seem to realize. On another note, I'm very happy that Howard is back and I think that the changes he's bringing to the table will deffinately benefit both employee and customer.

these type of articles are probably 99% of the time written by some hippie who dislikes 'corporate america' and thinks starbucks has 'sold out' or something like that, so they try to say 'starbucks is in trouble' or whatever. id like to know how the writer comes about to think starbucks in portland is 'sputtering'. does he have access to their sales information and profit statements etc etc etc? i dont think so. maybe he interviewed people who go to those other coffeshops and they said they dont go to starbucks anymore. well then starbucks must be sputtering!

its just so stupid that these people can write an article on how starbucks is 'sputtering' and probably convince themselves that its actually true. starbucks is one of the largest food/beverage companies in the world and deliver great products. an independent coffee store probably has great coffee too, but to say like people are going to leave starbucks and go to independent stores and put starbucks out of business is ridiculous and ludicrous. if i had to bet, id say the independent store would be out of business within a year and there will be 10 more starbucks in the city. not that i want that to happen, but if i had to bet id say thats what would happen

would you rather be the president of independent coffee store 'a', or the president of starbucks. hmm i wonder.

[CoffeeSense]

A couple of days ago, I watched as this independent barista made a beautiful design while pouring a latte. That she was doing this while service a long line of breakfast customers was amazing enough. But that she was doing this for a to-go drink in a paper cup was simply astounding.

I couple of days ago, I saw a barista in an indie store more interested in her coworker than acknowledging me. What was more astounding is that I noticed chipped paint on her nails, and I was really grossed out- isn't that a violation?

[Not a button pusher.]

I would rather be president of independent coffee store 'a'. Selling my soul to the devil's not in my cards. Money ain't everything.....Knowing you can take pride in what you do, actually making people hand-crafted drinks allows me to sleep at night. You button-pushers will never know what real coffee is, or real espresso is supposed to look like. We can't all be gifted with our own brains, though. Quit drinking the Kool-aid Hungry Howie is doling out and think for yourself. You can do it, I know you can.

[flaubert]

Remember that Starbucks is still growing...all this fuss about how Starbucks "is in trouble" is silly.

While it's true that Starbucks has put itself int he wrong direction, Howie's influence is really starting to reverse that trend. I'd also like to say that the automatic machines themselves would have been fine if the company hadn't crunched on labor at the same time.

Some additional man-hours, training, and maintenance in the stores could get everyone on the same page and get a higher-quality and espresso-based beverage. The problem isn't the machines it's that most baristas don't airate their milk and almost NO stores check and adjust shots every hour...

I'm really convinced that in 80% of our customers drinks, the milk quality matters more than the shot quality. After they've added a bunch of flavoring and sugar, there's not a whole lot of coffee flavor left.

The automatic machines really don't impact our ability to steam milk properly.

That's my 2%.

In the end there's always room for locals...and for Starbucks too.

[sbuxnewbie]

While I do like, and frequent indie coffee shops, if I can't get the beverage I want, prepared the way I want it, I do not return.

I recall visiting a nice little hole in the wall in Northampton, MA that prepped a very nice cup of coffee, with pretty latte art... at about $6 for a small (or tall, if you will) size.

I questioned the price, since there was no menu posted, and was told that, "yeah, a latte costs $6. It takes a long time to learn to do that art, man."

Needless to say, I never went back.

In San Francisco, I had an exquisite cafe au lait, complete with latte art, for $3, about a 16 oz size. What I would expect to pay.

Except the barista was ignoring me, until a friend who is a regular yelled at him for doing so. The beverage was great, but the service was poor.

In San Jose, CA, I always stop at one of two places: Drinx, a parking lot kisok, or great little place in a strip mall (I can recall the name, but we call it "The Elephant", for the painting of the elephant on the wall.)

It isn't anything fancy, just a good, well made drink, at decent prices, and the people who make them care. The manager said that she loves the job, but confided that the only reason she can afford to stay is because her father owns the shop, so she gets free child care, and a decent paycheck.

In Montreal, I visited 5 indie shops, and was told that I couldn't get my drink the way I wanted, only the way they made it. (All I wanted was 1-2 pumps of chocolate syrup, 2 shots of espresso, and steamed milk. I 2-pump mocha latte.) Instead, I had to accept steamed chocolate milk with chilled coffee - they refused to pour shots, mix in the syrup, and add steamed milk.

I finally found a Starbucks, and got the drink the way I wanted.

So there are good and bad indie shops. Some roast, some don't. But other than a licensed store, the only negative experience I've ever had at a company owned Starbucks was at the Westchester mall in White Plains.

The percentage is higher in favor of Starbucks staying around for the long term.

[vegan_designer]

When I spent my year working at Starbucks in Michigan, I felt pride in working there - I really do feel as though customer service and caring about customers IS at the core of Starbucks, and that's something that isn't true for smaller shops. We always had tons of fun, were wonderful to our customers, had the highest tip rate in our district, and knew a lot about our product.

Although I worked at the bux, I did frequent some smaller coffee shops that had the artsy, indie feel. They were open later, some were built into old houses so there was room after room of art, acoustic music sets, and more. My starbucks had two cafe's, one was big in the back and one was smaller in the front. So I spent a lot of time there too reading, doing graphic design work, etc.

Now I work in a different state (not at a coffee shop, in an office) and every morning I need my iced soy latte. Starbucks here is right across the street from the indie shop. I still go to the indie shop every morning, and sometimes Starbucks at night or right after work. The indie shop's espresso is better, their drink is all around tastier.

However, except for one, their baristas are rude, not focused on customer service, are often talking in the back and see you, yet wait minutes to come out, and don't want to re-make drinks, follow your (polite) requests, or seem to really care if you EVER come back. The guy who owns the place is old, and when he's ringing people up in the morning, it takes forever. There's ever only one barista, and sometimes she's also ringing people up. The line is always long, and they do not rush. However, their espresso is just better, and that's what I'm paying for in the end.

This makes me miss going to Starbucks. And I wish that their espresso was stronger, because I would go back in a second. Every time I go into my local Starbucks, the baristas are wonderful, I never seem like a burden, and they make the drinks correctly every time. Consistency is something the local indie shop also lacks.

Another main problem with Starbucks, which I don't see brought up much, is their cafes. Now, I mentioned that my old store had two, relatively comfy cafes. Right now where I live, there are 2 Starbucks in a 2 mile radius, and neither one of them has a cafe that ANYONE could comfortably sit in. The seats and tables are all crunched together, you can hear everyone else's conversation, there's no space to relax, read, or just drink your coffee.

I really hope for the day that I can come back to Starbucks for a good drink, and also the coffee house atmosphere I've never really seen but have heard they once had. I worked with the automatic espresso machines, so I never had the chance to work at a Starbucks with any authenticity. I would love to go to a place where customer service AND quality actually were priorities, and I know Starbucks wants to be that place. I hope they can achieve it.

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

When I first read this article, I thought they were referring to Portland, Maine but then realized it was Oregon. I was also looking at a local distributor who sold the old LM espresso machines. I realized that if I ever make enough money doing something else, I will definitely buy one and put it in my kitchen, right next to my turbochef oven.
In my opinion, the best way to make sure Starbucks espresso tastes great is by checking the calibration of the machine at all times. Just like you are suppose to check the temperatures of the fridges each morning and do a milk count, there should be an hourly log that is kept of the shot calibration. Furthermore, Starbucks should develop PDA's for all the stores that can easily log this information and then be stored in a central location. DM's can therefore easily check up on stores to see who is not logging information and therefore be held accountable. Truck drivers are tracked by GPS, why can't Starbucks learn to use all the tools available to them.

BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL
PRIMUS INTER PARES
STARBUCKS REBEL ALLIANCE
AIM SN: BOSTONSTARREBEL

[Mark Harris]

There are more and more examples of successful local coffee houses competing in markets along side Starbucks.

Many whine and complain that Starbucks has completely dominated the market and has made it impossible for other specialty coffee businesses to compete. That's not exactly the case.

A study conducted by the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA) in 2005 indicates that 60% of the coffee houses in operation in the US were independents, while only 40% of the coffee establishments in operation were large, scaled up chains like Starbucks. There is a link to this study at Starbucks Drinks - Love 'Em or Leave 'Em

Most definitely, Starbucks has helped establish and expand the market, the customer demand, and the customer base, but this only creates opportunity for the independent coffee houses to fill in and compete with a better product.

The coffee houses in Portland pointed out in the article are clear evidence that this competition is good!

And it doesn't suggest or spell the decline of Starbucks either, not by a long shot. As markets grow and expand, there's room for many.

Nonetheless, Starbucks, like any competitive business, does need to stay on its game, and competition helps drive the improvements we hope to see at Starbucks as well.

Mark

For a little amusement, be sure to cast your vote at Starbucks Drinks - Love 'em or Leave 'em. Are you a fan or naysayer?

One of the things that Howard has mentioned about changing is better training for baristas. I went through two weeks of training and it STILL didn't feel like enough, yet that is way more than most other coffee places give for training. I'm looking forward to this! Maybe we'll have a more in-depth bar training course...kind of like the Coffee Master program they are re-vamping and bringing back. I would highly encourage everyone here to go to the Starbucks website and contact the company with your ideas for "getting back to the basics," etc. I'm headed over there right now! Partners and customers DO have a voice...you just gotta know where to use it. It will be heard, I promise!

[Sharon Andrews]

I love Starbucks. I'm not even a Coffee drinker!! I do like coffee frappaccinos, and this winter have even delved into the latte side of things (especially during our recent cold spells).

I haven't tried many other coffee shops, but I remember one that I tried in Sisters a few years back, in the middle of summer (Sisters Outdoor Quilt show week). I wanted a coffee frappaccino, and I asked the girl behind the counter what their version was called. She said they didn't have those on the "menu" but she could make one with no problem...nope! It tasted terrible. I went there again (my friend wanted her morning coffee) and explained to her it was very bitter....she said no problem, she would make it better this time (I do think they gave that one to me for free). NOPE! That one didn't come close either. The next time we went in I had someone else behind the counter...told her the story (I was going to just get tea this time). She said that she knew what the problem was. She asked me if it had whipped cream in it...I said yes, on top. She said no, no, no...it has to be blended in. She did that, and BINGO.....it tasted much better. Didn't taste like a Starbucks, but was good.

So...that being said, Starbucks is THE coffee shop of the world. We all know that we will get what we are expecting each time we go (not including mistakes by the baristas). I do wish that I had never received that first little sample cup of a Carmel Frappaccino....THAT is the drink that got me hooked, even though I don't buy it anymore, it was definately the culprit!

[Nerfebarista]

Hey Not a Button Pusher, what makes you think that, just because we work for Starbucks, we don't know the artistry and purety of a good cup of coffee? I, frankly, am offended by all of you people implying that, just because I happen to push a button at this point in time, A) I've never used a manual machine before and B) you do anything better than I do even with my auto machine. I'm the type of guy that wants to go to barista challenges every year and if I had my way financially I would. Just because my button eliminates the tedious tamping process does not make you any better than me. thanks

[Nerfebarista]

OH and back on topic. They have a phrase for people that write crap like this article. I think it's called "penis envy". Now please go to your indie shops and quit spewing crap like this, no one cares.

P.s. I like indie shops too, my above statement is directed solely at the people that write retarded articles like this one. This guy clearly doesn't like starbucks so he should move on.

nerfebarista- it is safe to assume that you don't know any better about coffee, because if you did, you would clearly not work at startbucks. you would work somewhere that values quality in the cup, and maybe even participates in barista competitions.

and I am SURE that I can do anything better than you do, because I have had starbucks before. it is consistently crap. I cannot imagine that you somehow have magic to make the poor materials and equipment that you have at your disposal produce something quality. it's just not possible.

[Not a button pusher.]

Uh, you don't know coffee, that's why you got a job at Starbucks. And you darn well know you don't know what real espresso is, and how to pull good shots. Do you know what a tiger-stripe is? Didn't think so. A super-automatic machine CANNOT extract espresso near as well as a manual pull, including the "tedious" tamp you have to do. (Wuss.) And you're coffee sucks, so get over it. You suck, and your coffee does, and that's no bull. Again, think for yourself and use the brain that God gave you, and Howie took away. You are, and will remain, a button-pusher.

[Carlos]

Boston Starbucks Rebel wrote: "When I first read this article, I thought they were referring to Portland, Maine but then realized it was Oregon...."

Yeah, the name "Portland Oregonian" is a bit confusing.

[Von Brucen]

Not a Pusher,
How is your 401k treating you, or for that matter your stock options, full health coverage, tuition reimbursement, and free pound of coffee a week? Oh, what's that? You work for and indie cafe and you get paid mediocre wages and have no safety net for your family. I'm sorry to hear that. You're still young and idealistic, so it's a great place to shelter yourself. And at the very least you get to use a genuine authentic manual espresso machine and you get to go to barista contests. Hope you have strong wrists, because the longer you use that machine the more jacked up they'll get from the repetitive tamping turning and knocking. And your employer probably doesn't offer affordable health care. If they do you're one of the lucky ones. That being said I started on the manual machines, and they do produce a better tasting shot and offer more creative options, but I just would not want to go back to using them given the high level of traffic in most starbucks stores,(probably not a problem in your store, as many first time customers are most likely turned off by your elitist air and innefficient deployment) it just wouldnt be worth the strain on my wrists, and your average Joe is not able to discern the difference in taste, as they usually want to avoid their drink even remotely tasting like coffee, but more like sweet syrupy milk. I think I'll keep pressing my button, and take pride every time my finger makes contact.

[vegan_designer]

Von Brucen,
that was amazing.

[jeannie]

Hi I know that this really isn't the topic but I just wanted to say that I went to McDonalds today(and I like never go there)(I hate McDonalds and most fast food) and tried their iced coffee. I only wanted to try it because of what has been said about how some people rate it higher then starbucks(I've never even compared them). I have to say that I will definately not be ever getting it again. It was horrible, flavorless coffee. It would be my last choice. I didn't like it at all and could barely even taste the coffee. So starbucks is still on the top of my list!!

[SoCalSnowBunny]

I am so proud to work with you all!

When I see the few usuals here who are obviously nervous that they're losing their audience, and continuing their cynical rants, a song keeps popping into my head(sing it with me...):

"Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving
Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
I'm running and I won't touch ground
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving"

[Dolce]

As a Sbux barista from Portland, OR, I disagree with the columnist - Starbucks is going nowhere out of Portland. It is a popular spot even though we have so many great indie places. Consistency and friendliness is what Portlanders appreciate about Starbucks. Stumptown is very popular too, but most people appreciate both brands at the same time. At least that's how I see it. I've noticed most of the Starbucks in P-town have cute cafes; remodeled corners of old buildings. That, plus a familiar brand, is attractive.

I also would like to express my admiration for "real" baristas out there. We button-pushers will look up to you for the rest of our barista-lives and strive to reach that level of passion you invest into your hand-pulled shots, teenie foam bubbles, and decorative leaves. Until we reach your level, we will have to settle with an espresso method that allows us to pay more attention to our customers. >>In seriousness, your espresso does sometimes taste better. :P

Frankly, regardless if you're working at some indie shop or Starbucks, you're still making practically nothing, so regardless if Starbucks offers 401ks, etc, I'd imagine you still simply couldn't afford to pay into them in any truly important way.

Regarding the indie shops, yeah, I frequent them, but, I'll tell you this much: they can be just as bad as Starbucks. There's this fantastic one around, but the dude couldn't get his latte art right and remade the drink four times and wasted 15 minutes of my day. It was a to-go drink, at that. Unacceptable, and he wouldn't let me take drink number two when I said I wasn't really interested in having Michaelangelo's "The Creation of Adam" on top of my latte.

Starbucks has its issues, too. I think you can't really compare the two anymore. They compete for a customer's luxury dollar, but in completely different ways.

Also, look at the clientèle in Portland. Have you been to Portland? I know I have, and it's a great city. But... Take a look at the indie-wannabe hipsters who galavant around all day trying to impress the other indie-wannabe hipsters with their wannabe vintage clothing that really comes from American Apparel. (Shh. Don't tell anyone!) They're GOING to drop Starbucks like it was hot and head to the indie shops because that's what the other wannabe hipsters are doing.

Starbucks is the busy man's place. Indie shops are for the people that probably don't have jobs.

Nuff said.

[BroylingWaterBurns]

Gotta love the elitist Indie baristas. Congrats, you make less than we do, you don't get health benefits, you don't get stock options, but hey..You make great latte art, and you get to use a manual machine, that produces a great shot, too bad a large majority of people couldn't care less..Wow, look..It's the Mona Lisa, too bad it took 15 minutes to make, and it tastes practically like a Starbucks latte to me. Like someone said before, Starbucks is catered towards the people who actually have somewhere to be, Indie Shops are for those who live at a coffee shop, and really don't have anything else to do..So, both places have their purpose, and it doesn't make it better than you..And FYI, Barista competitions are the dumbest things I've ever heard..Come on, we are basically glorified bartenders(I don't even use the term barista, I see it as just an elitist title, I'm in the customer service business)

[Melody]

Indie shops can be as frustrating as all heck. When you practically feel you need an I.V. of Starbucks caramel sauce, and all there is an indie shop, you're out of luck. My favorite drink would be caramel sauce, 2 shots (shots first), some hot water, whip cream, and more caramel on top. Delicious - it's very difficult to get anything that resembles this from an indie shop.
This thread just makes me love Starbucks more! :D

that is because your drink is ridiculous, melody. also, in my cafe that'd be a small americano, add caramel add whip. not so hard. not so special. just ridiculous, and unnecessary if you actually like coffee.

and, I get paid more than you, according to what a starbucks employee who frequents my shop told me, and then she quickly followed up with "but we get health benefits",to which I replied- I do to, with no employee contribution- that's right, nothing is taken out of my check. I don't get stock shares, but your stock is tanking, so I will keep the money that you're wasting on SBUX, thanks. and I can take home coffee every week that is actually drinkable.

and, at least in my case, it's less elitism and more pride- I know what I make is a million times better than what someone can get from a starbucks. I don't need to bag on starbucks, my customers do it for me. I provide friendly, polite service, and do my best to provide the customer with what they want. especially when what they want is good coffee.

[20secondshotguy]

Folks,

Starbucks baristas and indie baristas ripping into each other doesn't get anyone anywhere.

We're both about great coffee and giving our customers the best experiences in our shops.

We buy the best coffee we can. We train our baristas the best way we know how and monitor quality and service along the way. If we love the bean we're romancing, we do these things or we can't live with ourselves.

I've had coffee from Starbucks that is amazing--today I had a cup of Brazilian Ipanema Bourbon that was outstanding. I've had coffee from Stumptown that was over roasted--in my opinion--and the same bean from Paradise roasted a bit lighter that was to die for (Both Stumptown and Paradise use a lighter roast than we do at Starbucks). I've had Starbucks Kona with a lot more cereal notes than I expected. In the end, roasting is remains an art.

If you think of coffee like wine you discover a whole spectrum of roasts and flavor profiles that most individual roasters and companies just touch -- including Starbucks. That's ok, Most vineyards don't bottle every kind of wine either. They have their take, their approach as coffee roasters do. And the wine varies year to year along the way.

Loving the bean as a company or shop is only half the task. At some point we all entrust it to the care of individuals to brew and serve. One of my favorite sbux managers teaches all his partners latte art. It's his way of helping them to cherish their part of latte preparation. Another partner likes to compare the tiger-like stripe of a good shot (with the crema, body and heart blending) to a newly poured pint of Guinesss. I love hearing that passion!

This can be a good place for folks to vent, yes. But knocking anyone who loves coffee as much we all do--Starbucks partners and indie employees--just disrespects a bean we both love.

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

Latte art? I thought I was just seeing the Virgin Mary in my latte. Oh well.

for the guy that didnt like mcdonalds iced coffee - i first tried it twice when it first came out in my area, and both times it tasted like the milk was spoiled or something. so i didnt get it again until like 2 weeks ago when i wanted to try it again, from a dif store, and it was really good. it tasted like actual iced coffee, not spoiled milk iced coffee. so then i went back to the store where it was bad, and it was much better this time, i dunno if maybe they changed the way they make it or whatever, but it was good. i will say though i think it could use a little more coffee & less milk, but its still good. so id suggest going to a dif mcdonalds in ur area & at least trying it and taking it back if its not good, but i would say that the only reason ud want to get starbucks iced coffee over mcdonalds is just if u work or live right next to starbucks or something like that, or want more control on how much milk & what type of milk you put in. mainly since a venti iced coffee is close to a dollar more for i think a smaller size than mcdonalds large. i have just been getting the regular flavored lately from mcdonalds though, so ill have to see how the vanilla & hazelnut are. the first time when it was terrible i got vanilla so i thought maybe it was the syrup that was not good or something, but i think it was the milk at the time, or how they made it, something! but now it seems to be much better.

BSR
I have to give you kudos-Forcing us all to time our shots on a regular basis is a great idea! I've never worked at a store that did it enough...I'm going to turn over a new leaf. Even tho I'm the only person in my store that insists it get done-I usually only do it once per shift. Starting tomorrow I'm going to designate a partner each shift to wear a 1 hr timer and time the shots every time it goes off!!!! BACK TO BASICS!!!!!

[Not a button pusher]

Von brucen, for the record, I make $11 an hour plus tips, which are more than yours, because unlike you, I actually make the drink and my customers reward me for making their latte look nice with a little art by adding more money to the tip jar. Also, I have a 401K, full insurance paid by my company, and stock options? Have you checked your stock lately? Talk about decline.....
Again, you will remain, a button-pusher. No wonder Howie's saying you need to get back to the basics. He's raised up a generation of button-pushing schmucks who don't even take pride in what they do. (And please don't ever kid yourself into thinking your drink will ever taste as good as mine, because you're outta your mind. But bring it to a competition, oh wait. You're scared cause you don't know how to make espresso properly, and they don't have a button-pushing competition. I actually take PRIDE in what I do. You ever heard of it? Oh, I didn't think so....)

[Darleen]

It makes me laugh when someone from a different coffee shop comes on to a starbucks website to put starbucks down. Why are they here? Jealousy no doubt. Let them hate, we're better than that.

[Not a button pusher]

Darleen, I am here because it's a free country, and there's this little thing called free speech. That's why. Jealousy, you wish. And again, if you think you make drinks as good as the indies, bring it anytime. You will certainly fail, and run back to Howie. I am sure myself and anyone else in the REAL coffee industry would love to show you what real espresso is. Again, come to any of our shops at anytime and challenge us with your drinks, outside on the street, and prepare to be embarrassed. It's a simple as that. I don't write checks I can't cash, and you shouldn't either.

[SoCalSnowBunny]

"Not a Button Pusher" is the classic example of the pretenious barista that all movies, TV, etc love to hate. You really are not going to win here, nor have any of your points validated. And yet you continue to respond time and time again. I'm not saying we're better than you, or that you're better than us. It just makes me laugh to imagine how fervently you are responding and how pissed off you sound. Get off your soapbox, dude.

[Kat]

There are pluses and minuses to Starbacks and the independent shops, at least where I live. I can't say, in all honesty, that any of the local shops makes a *better* cup of coffee than Starbucks. The prices are a bit lower, the one in particular I frequent roast and grinds it's own beans, and the coffee is ok but it's really about the same as the Starbucks up the street. I do have to say that the folks that work at most of the Starbucks here are considerably friendlier than the indie folks; often they act as if they are bored mindless and are doing me a big favor by pouring me a cup of coffee. I don't expect someone to be my best friend, but you know..a 'thank you' is always kind of nice. But the atmosphere is better for hooking up with friends to spend an hour chatting. So..I go back and forth between the two.

[Kevin]

LEDOG3,

You are so correct. I used to patronize Starbucks a lot–I mean a lot! But it seems that all the stores are so noisy these days, and not always from the customers. Sometimes, it's the Starbucks baristas that seem to enjoy raising the decibel level with their singing and joking amongst one another. I'm all for enjoying your work, but as a customer, I visit (or used to visit) Starbucks to enjoy coffee in a quiet setting while reading or doing homework.

Re: "The formula went into vapor long ago. The idea of a cozy coffee house with a couch and newspaper eventually gave way to a noisy, crowded building that has all the atmosphere of an elementary school cafeteria at lunchtime. The little independents are doing just fine for the most part thank you. [. . .]"

I will go to Starbucks when there isn't nothing else around, but I have to say, their coffee isn't any better (its ok, it’s not great). There are pro's and cons about going into any chain as opposed to a mom and pop. I always related to, going to a fine, fresh sea food restaurant on the coast of Maine, or red lobster. The may look the same, and may even taste a little alike, but is ANYONE going to prefer Red Lobster? Well, anyone that knows what good sea food tastes like anyway?

[lb]

False dichotomy. 'Indie' coffee wanks love to paint a world wherein, on the one hand, there's the 'quality' guys (read: indie shops) and on the other hand, there's the 'profit' guys (read: big bad corporate coffee).

I'm not saying it isn't true some times. And I'm not saying that it isn't a contributing factor to Starbuck's current problems.

But here's the reality: Starbucks became highly profitable because of its focus on quality. They are independent of each other, they are by and large codependent on one another.

Moreover, most of the big-bad mainstream chains that we all love to love and love to hate, from Starbucks to the GAP to McDonalds to PF Changs, etc. became huge and powerful (and continue to maintain their predominance) because of a commitment to quality.

It might not be an idiosyncratic, at all costs commitment which these quixotic indies might claim ... but quality has always been an overriding factor. And, truth be told, every business, no mater how large or small, has to make compromises on product quality at some point. It's only a question of at what point and to what extent. Any given business could run itself into the ground if it only focused on achieving the HIGHEST POSSIBLE quality.

I'm going to defend button pusher to an extent. Above, I believe it was Von Brucen that said this about manual machines "and they do produce a better tasting shot and offer more creative options" They draw back; apparently they are too physically taxing on young Von Brucen. Its coffee my friend, you aren't building a bridge, get to the gym for god sake. Also, in that admission, he states the Starbucks did trade in quality for speed and quantity. Anyone that is coming to a coffee shop for GOOD coffee, doesn't mind waiting a few extra minutes for something that will be prepared better, with higher quality. Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee people, sorry to say.

And you are right SoCalSnowBunny, he isn't going to win his points here. To use an example above. It would be like arguing with someone that Red Lobster has the best sea food around, when they are brought to believe that ALL sea food is suppose to taste like Red Lobster. You are right, it’s a loosing argument.

[Sigh]

We shouldn't degrade the employees - it's the customers who need an overhaul. They apparently don't know [or don't care] about quality coffee and should demand it.

The person at the indie couldn't make a frappucino since frappucinos are made from a pre-made chemical-laden mix.

They do taste pretty good on a hot day, though.

"We shouldn't degrade the employees - it's the customers who need an overhaul. They apparently don't know [or don't care] about quality coffee and should demand it." And who's fault is that? Starbucks creates these "customers" they aren't going to go away, they will still flock to Starbucks, becuase Starbucks is thier idea of what a coffee shop is. That is what Starbucks wanted, that is what they are getting. And, how can you demand something, when you don't know what you are demanding? THey don't know what quality coffee is, they will demand what they THINK it is.

I guess "Not a Button pusher" works on a Lever machine, or else he's a button pusher too!
I worked on the La Marzocco for 6 years and I still had to push a button!!! I worked on a Lever Machine for 2 years and it didnt make as good espresso as the La M.
I now work on The Verismo and have to say that it isn't the machine that makes bad shots...it's mainly the lack of training and maintenance. The auto-steam function on the Verismo is the biggest time-saving benefit ever-anyone remember over steaming a whole large pitcher of milk????
Anyway-lets please get some perspective on this Indie vs Starbucks baristas war!!!
Snobbery is so unattractive!!!!

So, who thinks their store is going to win the iTouchs and the coffee tasting with Howie?????

[pdxshifty]

I was i n stumptown in the ace hotel the other day. Everything was more expensive than the bux, even drip coffee. They had the store logo stamped on all the cups because I'm sure pre printed cups would be too corporate (mind you they had custom logos etched into their espresso machines). The staff was slow, inattentive, and appeared to step out of a wes anderson picture. You could tell that the girl was touched buy an uncle, the guy with the 1900's handlebar mustache and doesn't bathe is into porn, but only for the artistry, and the other guy is in a metal band, but not really, they are art metal and are ironic about it.

I hated it there not to mention the pastries looked the same.

[barista lane]

how's everyone doing with the whole bean sales? my store is making a big push, but realizing that it's going to be tough to beat out the larger, busier stores across the nation.

also, and word on smaller rewards for stores that perform well, but don't win?