"From the Comfy Chair": Juan is served coffee without a lid. What's with that? A Canada thing?

BY JUAN VALDEZ

We regret to inform you we are going to push back our visit to the Starbucks at 538 S. Virginia St in Reno, Nevada for another week or so. Over the weekend, someone mentioned in the comments section of Starbucks Gossip that Howard Schultz was going to be in Vancouver, BC this week. Almost immediately a light bulb flickered over my head and grew stronger as I considered the possibilities. I didn't really expect to be able to see him this week before the column was due but I did think I could go up there and scope out what he might see. So I did. As a result, I give you the Canadian version of "From The Comfy Chair."

The gal-pal and I hit four SBUX during our quick visit to the Vancouver area. In the interests of conserving space, I won't do a full report on each visit but touch on the highlights...or lowlights as it were. I do have some general comments which pretty much cover all four stores. 

First, we hit these stores in the late afternoon/evening.

Second, every store we visited was serving PPR.  As the mild coffee. Yes, you saw that correctly.  Every store was brewing Komodo Dragon or Verona as the bold coffee. In. The. Evening. This was Melody heaven if I ever saw one.

Finally, we ordered drip coffee at every stop. In every case, our coffee came without a lid. These were all to-go cups and we weren't asked if we wanted our drinks "for here"; we were just handed our drinks without lids. Is that a Canada thing? It seemed very strange. And dangerous. /CONTINUED IN THE FIRST COMMENT

Comments

[JUAN VALDEZ]

On to the visits. If Howard were to have been with us, here's what he would have seen:

Oak and 67 (residential area):
*Absolutely filthy patio with food scattered everywhere
*Dirty lobby/tables that were not cleaned while we were there
*3 partners on the floor/business was slow/they stayed behind the counter the whole time
*Absolutely filthy bathroom with dirt stains all over the wash basin. Even worse, the seat on the commode was hanging on by a literal thread and the seat cover container was empty with the container box lying on the floor, empty.
*Gaping holes in the cold case
*One tray of pastry/the rest of the pastry case was empty except for crumbs
*The oven was shut off and the door open.
*Register partner was polite
*Fingerprints all over the front door
*Rating - F

3820 Oak Street (residential area):
*3 partners
*Slow
*Nice looking pastry case (full and clean)
*Cold case was completely empty but with a printed sign that stated it was out of order and to ask a partner if you wanted something. Nice touch but it would have been even better with another printed sign which listed available items and their prices
*Bathroom was clean
*Lobby was clean
*Partners did lobby sweeps
*Rating - B

468 Robson (downtown core)
*very urban feel
*4 partners
*Very busy
*Awesome register partner. She connected with us, asked about our day and was very friendly but not in an annoying way
*Lobby was dirty but they did lobby sweeps – good job
*Clean bathroom except for the graffiti on the walls but, what the hell, it was an urban area so I'll give it to them
*Rating - A

Broadway & Manitoba
*3 partners
*We entered right before closing. Still had komodo available – yay
*The pastry case and cold case looked great
*There was a very friendly register partner even though it was nearly closing
*We didnt get a chance to check out the bathroom as we had to skeedaddle.
*Rating - B

My bet is Howard's not gonna be allowed anywhere near the store at Oak and 67th. At least not if the DM wants to keep their job. So we bid fare thee well to the land of the Canucks and wish you all the best of luck while Howard's in town.

COLUMN STATS



* # of stores reviewed where a partner has tried to connect with a customer – 10 out of 26

* # of stores where they've offered samples of anything – 2 out of 26







* # of stores that could have been considered "understaffed" - 0 out of 26

* # of stores with a clean bathroom – 14 out of 26

"Juan Valdez" is the nom de cyber of a former Starbucks manager who became disenchanted with the increasingly bitter taste of the Starbucks experience and fled to the mountains of Colombia where he now rides his burro and ponders the glittering sunsets. On a crisp clear day, when atmospheric conditions are just right and the moon is in the seventh house, Juan can be reached at [email protected]

[SBUX Alum Bill]

So how does the first store compare to the local McDonald's?

[Erik]

Yes, getting your coffee without a lid does seem to be a Canadian thing. Heck, I almost never get a sleeve on the cup. I'm from Minnesota and moved to Toronto about a year ago - it was an obvious difference but now I'm just used to it.

[foxy]

And yes, having no lid on the drinks is a Canadian thing. I'm not sure why, because everywhere else you go they put lids on. But not at Starbucks. It was just as weird when I got a drink in Syracuse last week and it came with a lid on.
And we've been serving bold all day for some time now. ALL DAY LONG.

[Howiesadick]

as long as I've known a Starbucks in Canada... they've always let the customer put their own lid on...

[Brendan M.]

I visited Vancouver and Whistler last summer and also noticed that drinks come without lids. It never bothered me; just grab one at the hand-off and put it on yourself. (As an aside, I love being able to use my registered Starbucks card in Canada!) And props to them for having bold available (and ready) all day long.

[ProudlyCanadian]

I am a Canadian Partner, and when you order any beverage inside the cafe we, by standard, do not put a lid on the beverage. I believe it is a health and safety issue. Yes it seems a bit unsafe for those who are not sure-handed, but it's how we roll up here in the great white north!

Thanks for all your work on these articles Juan, it is really interesting to get a look into the American side of the brand! Keep up the good work!

[Bean Counter]

Juan,

Too bad you didn't get to visit the stores at Robson & Thurlow (just up the street). Speaking of urban stores, the main store at that intersection (there's one on the opposite corner as well), uses the Epson cup labeller system instead of marking the cups. I beleive it's the only non-DT store to do this.

[Juan Valdez]

@proudlycanadian

I'm curious as to why putting a lid on a hot drink would be a health safety issue as opposed to NOT putting a lid on a hot drink.

@bean counter

I would have liked to hit at least a couple more in the downtown area but we were on a tight time schedule. We'd intended to be in Vancouver earlier in the day but stuff kept getting in our way and we got a late start.

[greenteafrappucino]

I used to be a barista on 29th and dunbar (visit us if you ever get a chance), and the reason that we were taught that putting a lid on a hot drink is a health safety issue due to the fact that we are not working with gloves and there is a chance of potential contamination with the mouth slit.

Though I do understand the idea of putting a lid on a hot drink for the customer, I have seen baristas (in the UK and US, where putting the lid on for the customer is part of the deal), not really washing their hands in between tasks and making drinks and refilling lids behind the bar with ungloved hands (questioning what they've done in the backroom before coming out onto the floor with the lids).

Also, when we present the drinks without the lid, the customers can instantly tell whether you cheaped-out on their drink by not filling their drink up, putting WAY too much or not enough whip cream, too much or too little foam, the amount of caramel in a CM, etc. When the lid's off to begin with, it's a lot easier for the patient to judge how well the presentation of the drink is.

[BCbarista]

Haha cool. Lids are for sissies.

We're not even allowed to touch the lids or serviettes (US translation: "napkins") with bare hands at the condiment stand, we have to use gloves.

Although we do touch the iced drink lids...hm.

But, if you have your drink in a for here cup, there is no lid...is that a safety hazard?

[I like Canada]

I remember reading that they don't put lids on in Canada. It's in a bev manual or somewhere. This makes me think that Juan is lying about ever working for Sbux. "It seems dangerous" Are you that inept you can't hold a drink with out hurting yourself. I bet our neighbors to the north save tons of landfill space every year because of this practice. Besides most people put something in their coffee. Americans are like children and want everything done for us(including putting a lid on)

Juan get over yourself and quit looking for things to bitch about.

[Mikey]

As for lids on cups in the US vs. and no lids when served in Canada:

We Canadians are LAWSUIT happy like you guys in the U.S.

I still remember reading the case where the old lady dropped her McD's coffee in her lap and she was awarded $2 million.

In Canada, there's no such thing as a crazy lawsuit like that. We're more lawsuit civilized here.

[Mikey]

Oops, I can't type...

I meant "We Canadians aren't LAWSUIT happy like you guys in the U.S."

So many frivilous, outrageous $$$$ lawsuits...

[blockquote]

I still remember reading the case where the old lady dropped her McD's coffee in her lap and she was awarded $2 million. In Canada, there's no such thing as a crazy lawsuit like that.

You do, do you? The lawsuit where McDonalds ignored warnings that their coffee was kept dangerously hot, and an elderly woman suffered third-degree burns on her genitalia sufficient to require skin grafts? And this was only one of many such injuries that McDonalds had previously settled due to their repeated negligence.

Perhaps you might consider doing even the slightest bit of googling before opening your yap.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-11.htm
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

[metimesten]

The McDonalds lady was served scalding hot coffee. She needed skin grafts for the third degree burns! Coffee should never be served that hot. The store knew their coffee was dangerously hot, but they served it that way to save time and money. They had already had several customer complaints. McDonalds did not want to settle with her, thats why they went to court. The jury found the woman 20% responsible for the accident, and the company 80% at fault. Don't you Canadians learn to get all the facts before you spout off and criticize? I guess not.

[Pat Nerr]

@ I Like Canada: I was thinking thhe same thing about Juan. How could you work for Starbucks here in the NW and not know that Canada has not put lids on beverages for years... It's always been an argument in this area for as long as I can remember.

Juan: How could you just be finding this out? Did you never get out of the store?

[Juan Valdez]

@Pat Nerr

It wasn't high on my list of priorities to find out what the stores in Canada were doing and I don't ever remember it coming up in conversation. Of course, I might have missed that part of the training where they covered what the Canada stores were doing.

[Sigh]

@ blockquote

Why don't you try reading your own articles? The coffee was being served at 190 degrees. As far as I know, McDonald's still serves its coffee around that temperature. And Starbucks coffee is 200 degrees! Some of the recommendations made in that first link are ridiculous. If restaurants served coffee at 130 degrees, just about every customer would complain about it being too cold. Even consumer grade coffee makers produce coffee hotter than that. Adding any amount of milk to 130 degree coffee would make it practically room temperature. Do you really want to drink lukewarm 95 degree coffee? Ick.

It's too bad that old woman burned herself so badly, but it was caused by HER OWN negligence, not McDonald's. Who in their right mind removes the lid to a coffee cup in a moving vehicle, especially when said cup is being held in place by your thighs? She made a stupid choice. I highly doubt a little warning label would've prevented it anyway. If you're not observant enough to realize that the above action is a stupid idea, you probably aren't going to read a little warning on the lid. We need to stop accommodating such stupid people.

[Sigh]

Oh, and onto the original subject: Seattle's Best doesn't put lids on their coffee, either. Well, at least not in any of their Chicagoland Border's locations. The lids are at the condiment bar. I think this is a little strange. It works at a low-volume bookstore cafe, but it would be mayhem in a crowded cafe on a weekday morning. I understand the concept of the fact that the customer is able to immediately see the drink, but nobody is going to happy about a slightly better-tasting, made-perfectly-to-standards beverage if someone bumps into them and spills it on their way over to the condiment bar.

And if it's about health and cleanliness regarding touching the lids... wow. I don't even know what to say.

[Aces of Eight]

That lady was a retard. Anyone who squeezes a drink that is MEANT TO BE HOT between their thighs and takes the lid off during driving, and then wants anyone else to take even an iota of the blame is an irresponsible moron.

That's just ridiculous to defend her, everyone serves coffee hot because it's MEANT to be hot, duh! It's a hot beverage... it's called common sense, that's all it is. Dangerously hot my eye.

Oh, and I don't know why Juan should have to know about Canada's rules as an SM, since he obviously never worked in Canada.

Please stop being so sensitive about a little criticism, it sounded more like he was bemused than openly harsh and critical, get at thicker skin.

[Bean Counter]

The best is working at a store with the cup labeller system since we still use Fahrenheit for temperature measurement. For example, to indicate cold on some drinks I will enter "32 degrees" as a modifier, and puzzled looks from the bar partner who will state back that "32 degrees is not a correct temperature!"

** Sigh! **

[greenteafrappucino]

@sigh

In terms of your comment of spilling drinks whilst travelling from the bar area to the condiment stand (cause it's usually so inconveniently far away), that's the reason why canadian stores 'usually' have 2 places for lids. One at the condiment stand and one at the bar area.

@Juan
I do kinda agree with what Pat and I like Canada said, with slight canadian bias here, that you could've done more research before crossing the border - or could've been a little more open about it. I do understand that US and Canada have done things differently in terms of defining the 'starbucks ways', however, you do have to understand that different countries work with different food safety standards. Whilst canadian stores have to work to the standard of 'starbucks', there are also standards that have to reach the provinical standard.

I am very appreciative of you going cross the boarder to drink good ol' canadian starbucks, and I always thought what I would do when you come around the store I work at. However, as though I always admired your column with the bit of edge that not many reviewers of starbucks have, I found some of what you have said (though you might not have had that intention) quite ignorant and arrogant - "we were just handed our drinks without lids. Is that a Canada thing? It seemed very strange. And dangerous."

I think this was one of the times that you could've proactively talked to one of the shifts/baristas/SMs to get a better understanding of how things work in a different country.

@blockquote

I do also agree with sigh on this one, though it may be that the woman was served hot coffee at an 'extremely' high temperature (when an extra hot latte is at 180 degrees and normal temp is 160), to quote the article you linked us to: "79 year old Stella Liebeck suffered third degree burns on her groin and inner thighs while trying to add sugar to her coffee at a McDonalds drive through". Assuming she was in her car doing this, SURELY there was no way that it could've been SAFE in doing this - even with the car stopped on side - due to lack of completely flat surfaces in a car. and to also quote: "The Shriner Burn Institute had previously warned McDonalds not to serve coffee above 130 degrees" This would mean starbucks is up for some big lawsuit, as the only safe drinks they have are kids hot chocolates and iced drinks.

[KGB]

Ha ha ha !good old USA, "remember kids if a cup of hot coffee burns you, and you can find some way to prove that its not your fault, say like you talking on your phone/reading paperwork/driving/and paying for a drink at drive-thru, and you hit the top of the cup and the edge of your car window. If the crazy employee at the window didnt put a lid on or didnt do the "rolling lid method"...joke.... as the pictures in the Action Item said, then sue his BUTT OFF cause its the American way"

[canadian exbarista]

The lack of lid in Canada is just a flip-side view of the same policy in the US. If the Barista did not put the lid on, there is no chance the customer can come back at the company and sue if the lid the Barista put on popped off.

And since it's a Canadian health/safety thing, that means it's universal that no mistakes are made. actually, when I went to the US, I found it strange they put the lids on the coffee for the opposite reason.

[SPORK]

Hey! Stores nearish me! How exciting! No lids for us, it's just an American thing... it's funny because when I go to Starbucks in the States I always get annoyed of the fact that I have to take my lid off to put my cream in. Canadian Exbarista is correct with what they said, at least according to my manager. I always just thought that Canadians were smart enough to put on their own lid. (Jokes!!! I love the States!) :P

[ProudlyCanadian]

@ Juan Valdez

The reason I think it would be a health and safety issue to have the barista put the lid on cafe beverages, has to do with their hand coming in contact with the opening in the lid. As well, when the drink is handed out by the barista to a customer WITH a lid on, it is implying that the lid is securely fastened to the cup, giving the customer grounds for suit if the lid does come off and burn them.

Just my thoughts....

[exlawyer]

That old lady who dropped her coffee in her lap was still VERY rich with her lawsuit. That would never have happened in Canada.

Such stupid lawsuits, where lawyers get rich.

"After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)"

[bartea]

drinks WITH lids in the states? for a canadian barista as myself, this is less understandable than having a lid off. think about it: if you're being served coffee by a barista working on bar, they've been standing around handling cash, and touching god knows what else before they've got their hands on that lid that will soon be on your lips. ew. its all good and well if your drink is coming off the bar...but otherwise, i find the less bacteria the better. and dangerous? seriously? unless the customer has some sort of disability (in which case i'm sure everyone would be understanding) i believe the average adult has the motor capacity to carry a cup of coffee to the condiment stand to put a lid on.

[Tracey]

I like KGB's comments. Totally true. With bad economic times SUE.

[klbarista]

I'm a Canadian barista, and most of our customers don't want the lid on anyways... as they add their own dairy/sweeteners to their brew...We are supposed to sleeve each cup though. As for the "for here" , we have quite a few regulars who ask for it, seems to be individual stores focus differently on that topic.

yes, Canada serves Pike Place & our COW (featured coffee of the week, usually a bold) all day; decaf until 12-2pm, but should be able to brew if requested with a 4-5 min to wait.

Glad you had some good experiences in Vancouver...

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

Wait, so that woman was 79 years old and burned her shriveled groin. Its not like its used anymore, its so dried up.

[big tree]

What you're doing is absolutely pathetic. Why would you judge people on how they're doing their jobs? Are you a partner? Do you have a job or are you just one of those losers that makes a mess and then says "it's their job" to clean it up? The messiness of a store is the reflection of the public- it's everywhere and sometimes nearly impossible to take care of immediately.

[Coolkid]

Hahahaha... funny comment. Yes a rich 79 year old. Her beneficiaries of her inheritance must have been rich.

Seems that Canadian Starbucks is better than US Starbucks coz we got BOLD coffee to serve all day...

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

I read that Starbucks in Canada only got two stores for their Dave Matthews Listening Party tomorrow. Any people going to the listening party tomorrow?

[BCbarista]

Wait, you mean they sleeve every drink as well in the good ole USofA?

We only sleeve drinks with hot water in them, such as coffee, tea, americanos, chai lattes...lattes and other drinks made with milk only are not sleeved. Except in drive thru stores (which I am not in, thank goodness)

Is this not how it is in the states?

[spence]

Just so some of you know,
You are NEVER supposed to touch the part of the lid where a customer drinks.
Also, if you place the "spout" directly over the Starbucks logo on the cup(not the sleeve), the drink wont seep into the cup seams causing a leak.
BSR, You are very smart and well read. I'm always so surprised that you are classless.

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

Just the image of a 79 year old putting some "sugar" into her cup makes me cringe.

[Mark]

Anybody who removed a lid from a HOT beverage while driving deserves to get burned. Coffee is served HOT. Her coffee was served over the "recommended" temperature of 170 degrees F. The coffee cup did have a warning that the beverage was HOT.

Stella Libeck suit had the award reduced to just over $200k. McDonald's wanted to settle for her medical damages. The final award was for her actual damages, not any punitive damages.

In 2004 Janine Arslanian sued SBUX for allegedly getting 3rd degree burns. She alleged a defective cup.

There is a common-law defense of "commonly known hazard". This applies to beverage burns, taking a hot pan from the oven, etc...

P.S. Most people like HOT coffee, not lukewarm. Until the early 1990's coffee was brewed at 190 degrees F. Home coffee makers started brewing at 140 degrees F and restaurants were turning the temperature down on brewed coffee. This was making the customers very angry. Today, coffee is being again served hotter than 180 degrees F.

[Lids?]

The Canadian standard of not lidding cups has nothing to do with a health and safety issue. It's just about courtesy to your customers. Think about how many other Canadian coffee shops/fast food places/restaurants lid (Timmie's comes to mind). Also, think about how many CUSTOMERS hands have touched that lid before you do. Personally I would prefer a partner who regularly washes his/her hands to touch my lid (away from the sippy hole) than some random customer. Just my opinion though!

[roxyluxe]

When I worked at SBC cafe in Borders, we were not allowed to touch the guests lids because of sanitary reasons!

[Jess]

Just got back from Starbucks and read this post - as a Montrealer, I can say that I've never received a lid or a sleeve on my cup. Maybe Canadians are all secretly daredevils?

[embean]

I never understood the point of putting a lid on a drink, when you're just going to take it OFF to put stuff in it. In my opinion, it's easier to spill a drink when you're taking the lid off AND putting it on again, then just putting the lid on once.
And, the lawsuit-happy factor is exactly why we can get away with no lids up here. Lawsuits just wouldn't happen. People have enough sense to realize that if they spill something, it's their own fault.

[somehoser]

Do all Americans require sippy cups?

Are Americans really unable to walk the twenty or so steps to the condiment stand without spilling?

[KGB]

@BSR DMB !DMB! , I was going to have one at my store here in PA, but there were problems with the disc for the party(from DMB end) :(. and WTF? we only get four songs on the Hear-it now disc?! Talking Heads have like 50.

@somehoser, no just the ones who were not loved by there mommy when they were a kid, and now hate the world.

[KGB]

@embean also its alot easier for the person to walk over and dump some coffee in your trash can (even after you gave them a crap load of "room for cream"), so we can have the fun of cleaning up a mess when we change the trash filled with coffee later on...fun times

[OCD]

Next time, just think to check if the green hue of the brand logo is consistent within the store and with the general Starbucks corporate specification.

I think it's very important for the full enjoyment of the "Starbucks experience".

[adoubleshotofclarity]

@somehoser -- have you seen Wall-E?

[BOSTON STARBUCKS REBEL]

KGB,
Do you have a disc player or a hard drive player?

[Melody]

This episode of "From the Comfy Chair" just makes me want to take a road trip to Vancouver BC. I think my passport is expired unfortunately. They serve bold coffee all day ... Juan is right ... heaven!

I think that a few Seattle area Starbucks briefly did a test of serving drinks with no lids. I think the idea was supposed to be that the customer could enjoy the drink/experience more because they get to see the visual presentation - it's fun to look at the foam?? But then soon they were back to lids. I guess we Americans really like lids.